религиозная полемика

[Юлия Фкэ]

Шутка Славика навеяла воспоминание. (ch)
Когда я переехала в свою нынешнюю квартиру (в почти полностью еврейском доме) на косяке входной двери был след от предыдущей мезузы, и я подумала, не проявить ли мне солидарность с народом и повесить туда новую.
Но мне было важно знать, что же за текст там кроется внутри. И я начала расспрашивать всех религиозных знакомых. Выяснилось, что текст о том, как надо угождать богу (путем соблюдений некоторых ритуалов), и бог позаботится о тебе. А вот если ты не прислушаешься ко всем этим правилам, бог тебя накажет.
Не повесила я мезузу.
Я плохо реагирую на ультиматумы.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Значит так - я мезузу повесила, и обо мне Б-г позаботился. :-P
Now, почему Б-г "позаботился" о Рабиновиче фиг его знает...*-)

[Салмаксова]

I think that any religious paraphernalia flaunted into fellow man's face is the sign of hypocrisy. The SPIRITUAL relationship with God cannot be presented by a shmata on your head or an outfit or a trinket on your door or on your neck. Anyone who feels closer to God by following a ritual actually proves the weakness of his faith because he works hard on showing his faith to others.
The only reasonable explanation I have of the rituals is to feel the sense of belonging to the group of like-minded individuals. The only reason my husband nailed a mezuza to the door (after TEN years of us having it) is because an ethnic Ukrainian was coming over for dinner. Just to warn a visitor, "You see this? Now, don't say what I think you could be thinking!" We had a pleasant evening.
And if we should be afraid of God's wrath (and hang a thingie on the door), let me quote Elie Weisel, "Fear not God's wrath, but His indifference."

[Олег Сах]

My mother was very proud of me that day. Just so it's clear it was a Canadian-born Ukrainian, if you know what I mean.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I think that any religious paraphernalia flaunted into fellow man'sface is the sign of hypocrisy. The SPIRITUAL relationship with Godcannot be presented by a shmata on your head or an outfit or a trinketon your door or on your neck
1. Why is it a hypocracy?
2. How do you develop a "spiritual relationship with God" if not through religion? Religion is the vehicle to God...

[Юлия Фкэй]

The only reason my husband nailed a mezuza to the door (after TEN yearsof us having it) is because an ethnic Ukrainian was coming over fordinner.
I am not getting this motivation. What exactly were you trying to demonstrate to him? (md)

[Салмаксова]

Religion is the vehicle to God...
See, that's nonsense. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he is everywhere. In every particle of the universe he exists. He is as much inside the house of worship as he is inside an ocean trench. God shouldn't need a car to come to you, the faithful, because he's inside you already. A priest is, thus, useless, because he is no more filled with His presence than you are.

[Светлана Гэмм]

You are right - he is everywhere, but how do you develop a relationship with him? Why do we need him (or the relationship with him) at all from your point of you?
If you want to spiritally evolve, how do you measure your evolvement if not through religion?

[Юлия Фкэй]

В этом и содержится проблема организованной религии: люди погрязают в ритуалах, ошибочно полагая, что одно их соблюдение и делает их праведными, совершенно при этом пренебрегая такими понятиями, как элементарная доброта.
I was once in a Hasidic neighborhood, and I had an hour or two to kill. I knew there was a library somewhere around, but didn't know exactly where. So I asked this elderly woman if she could direct me to it. Она окинула меня этаким высокомерно-осуждающим взглядом (и я даже не была при этом как-то вызывающе одета, unless you consider jeans and a body-hugging top to be such), и процедила сквозь зубы, что не знает. А ведь это человек на закате своей жизни. Который ни-че-му за всю жизнь шаббатов и кашрута не научился.

[Салмаксова]

If you choose to develop and evolve your relationship with god, then why would you choose to do so through the fallacy of man-made church? The scriptures weren't faxed here from heaven. How do you REALLY know that God's listening? because some rabbi told someone to say it five thousand years ago?
And I mostly certainly wouldn't measure the evolution of faith by the length of my skirt or by the number of Hail Marys or by the amount of infidels I kill.

[Юлия Фкэй]

I still don't get it. How are the pogroms (I am guessing that's what you were alluding to) relevant to you, and especially now, and after so many years in this country?
OR to the Ukrainian friend you invited? (md)

[Светлана Гэмм]

You can't judge about the whole religion/religions by the action of the few....and just they are people...they do do a lot of acts of kindness through charity, helping their community, helping Israel...
but maybe (?) orthodox/hassidic jews dd take it a bit much or literally in their rituals, still doesn't mean it's all meaningless...

[Салмаксова]

Который ни-че-му за всю жизнь шаббатов и кашрута не научился.
In this case, I'm all for the religion. This woman's life have had purpose - rituals, children, husband, rituals. It must be wonderful to have your life so orderly and arranged. So what if that's all she knows? Maybe, she has nine kids and that's her greatest wealth and knowledge.
Maybe, she's lucky not to have the time and space to ask some dumb-ass questions like, "Зачем меня мама на свет родила?" She already knows.

[Светлана Гэмм]

If you choose to develop and evolve your relationship with god, thenwhy would you choose to do so through the fallacy of man-made church?The scriptures weren't faxed here from heaven. How do you REALLY knowthat God's listening?
Well, you do it not because some rabbi told you but because YOU believe in him (God)...and also believe that Torah is the word of God...
Otherwise, what is the purpose at all in believing?
If you truly believe in God, you will believe in his commandments and follow them...

[Салмаксова]

BTW, Hasidum do not support Israel the way my family does. They chant "Down Israel!" every time we attend Pride of Israel parade. They think that we don't deserve a secular democratic state because we're waiting for something or someone. Or some other nonsense.

[Юлия Фкэ]

Well, not all, I think you mean the Haredi. I saw them stand on the other side of the parade with the "Palestinians".
But it is true, even if the given Hasidic faction is open to the idea of a Jewish state (before the arrival of Moshiach), they don't get themselves involved in Israel advocacy. Orthodox Jews often do, though.

[Юлия Фкэй]

Still, you gotta admire the fact that such diversity of opinion is even possible within the Jewish nation. In Islam there would have been a mass fattwah issued on their heads the moment they made a squeak against anything.
Not that it has anything to do with the topic. (H)

[Лина]

Anyone who feels closer to God by following a ritual actually proves the weakness of his faith because he works hard on showing his faith to others.
.
I don't even know where to begin arguing the fallacy of that statement. But what's the point... What right do any of us have to critisize any ritualone choosesto feel closer to God - as long as it doesn't involve sacrificing babies or something similar.If going to a church, praying several times a day, or meditating in a garden helps one develope a relationship with their creator, than who are we to judge, and what exactly isthe harm?How is it diffrent from parents using certain rituals tohave a closer relationship with their children,what about celebrating the day of your birth, Sunday night dinner with your family, date nights, anniversaries... Any ritual or tradition will have as much or as little meaning as you choose to impart to it.

[Юлия Фкэй]

Well, not all, I think you mean the Haredi. I saw them stand on the other side of the parade with the "Palestinians".
Actually, that's not the complete picture.
I believe it is one thing not to support the creation of the state of Israel, on general principle. It is quite another to stand there at the Israel Day parade holding Palestinian flags, which was what they did.

[Юлия Фкэ]

And yet quite another to send a delegation to Iran to discuss the destruction of Israel.
But anyhow, the topic is not about them. (ch)
It is interesting, though, where blind religious faith might lead one.

[Лина]

Who cares about wedding rings? They have as much or as little meaning as you want them to - so do most things for that matter. Bur people wear them, and we usually don't mock those that do.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Ok, this is not about rituals or полемикa, it's about how it's connected to the one's belief in God. And I already mentioned how - if you believe in God AND the Holy books you just follow the God's will and that's reflected in your life...
But this is not to say that following rituals is above the moral behavior or our treatment of the fellow human beings...Honesty, morality, integritity - all come first...above all the rituals...
The problems is if you don't follow the religious teaching, then it becomes all relative. What do then measure your "morality" against then?

[Лина]

Ok, this is not about rituals or полемикa, it's about how it's connected to the one's belief in God. And I already mentioned how - if you believe in God AND the Holy books you just follow the God's will and that's reflected in your life...
The problems is if you don't follow the religious teaching, then it becomes all relative. What do then measure your "morality" against then?
.
I don't agree with that, I believe that a sense of morality predates any religious writings. I thinkthatsome of the religious dogmais based on this inherent sense of morality - that's why, for the most part,it really doesn't matter which religion you follow. Following traditions and rituals (not necessarily religious ones), helps people focus and stay connected with this inherent morality, amist all the distractions and temptations of the outside world.

[Khramaya]

all going round and round....
1- spirituality does not need to be rooted in religion, it's been said again and again.....
2- morality does need to be dictated by 2- 5 thousand year old books, morality simply follows karmic rules of cause and effect,
3- organized religion is inherently full of hypocrisy and, although provides sense of community, does not nurture free thought
4-ritual is healthy as anchor and as symbol of "belonging to your tribe", but when taken to extreme becomes excluding, limiting and tool of manipulation and control.
5- all of the discussions in previous posts are limited to western religions with their "vertical" hierarchy ( that by itself implies control ) and don't even begin to touch other systems of thought with more organic, "all is one" concepts.

[ГАЛИНА МЮТО]

Народ, религия - это ничто иное как форма общественного сознания. Это не панацея, не истиный путь, не спасение, а всего лишь форма общественного сознания. Поэтому Юля, ваши узкие джинсы были осуждены представительницей, вернее ее носителем. Именем религии было совершено много убийств и страшных преступлений, ничего не умеющими общего с символом той самой веры.

[ГАЛИНА МЮТО]

Этика не обязательно является частью религии. Как раз поворот к гумманизму в 18 веке вывел этику из-под эгиды религии. Но не все страны прошли через Реформацию и Просвещение. Мусульмане остались там где они и были 500 лет назад. А сейчас, когда глобализация свела все народы в единое информационное пространство, их социальные устои и вера в том числе коренным образом противостоят остальному миру. Вот отсюда и исламский радикализм и его оружие, терроризм.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Galina, you are right (Y) a lot of these rituals have a lot to do with ethics...like something like eating kosher meat has to do with ethical treatment of the animal, killing of the animal in a way the animal would not feel pain or suffer...hunting, for example is prohibited in Judaism - you should not kill an animal for sport, and so on...

[Салмаксова]

But this is not to say that following rituals is above the moralbehavior or our treatment of the fellow human beings...Honesty,morality, integrity - all come first...above all the rituals...
I think so, too. But often organized religions provide the moral behavior baseline to the faithful for motives other than God's directives.

[Светлана Гэмм]

***********.youtube.com/watch?v=whLYM9o946w
this is а fun video...и только не надо потом говорить. что религия "does not nurture free thought"....(tr)
:-D

[Лина]

Psychologist Matt J. Rossano argues that religion emerged after morality and built upon morality by expanding the social scrutiny of individual behavior to include supernatural agents. By including ever watchful ancestors, spirits and gods in the social realm, humans discovered an effective strategy for restraining selfishness and building more cooperative groups. The adaptive value of religion would have enhanced group survival.

[ГАЛИНА МЮТО]

Лина, вы правы. это еще раз подтверждает тот факт, что религия - это форма общественного сознания. Выполняет ли религя организационные функции в обществе. В Западой политической традиции - уже нет, а восточной, особенно в мусульманской, даже очень.

[Олег Сах]

Я решил откопать юлину тему для наших спорщиков. А также, я видел недавно bumper sticker "Keep Christ in Christmas". Бытует мнение, что в превращении Рождества в "Holiday" виноваты евреи. Я так не считаю. Я уверен что это выгодно большим корпорациям, ощущающим, в отличие от Лины, фундаментальное отчуждение масс от религии. Рождество как таковое - это всего лишь религиозный праздник, который грозил отойти на задний план вместе с Sunday School, neighborhood priests, confirmations and such. Чтобы не упустить добровольно-принудительное опустошение карманов каждый декабрь, big boys решили всю эту вакханалию назвать "The Holiday". Ваше мнение?

[Славик Саж]

На моей работе Christmas превратился в Holidays лет 5 назад. Больше всех этим возмущались еврей из Киева и мусульманин из Пакистана которым Christmas ну никак не мешал и не оскорблял. Остальные (христиане), отнеслись к этому спокойно. По-прежнему, в Декабре все получили, на выбор, frozen turkey or 10 pound brick of ham. Мусульманин выбрал turkey, киевлянин .....

[Mike]

I am glad that Christmas is becoming a Holiday..
For many years when people tell me "Merry Christmas" i usually respond with "Allah Akbar"
It's still annoying that Christmas is somehow a federal holiday, what happened with the separation of church as state?
I would rather have 2 extra days around the new years.. at least that's a meaningful holiday for everyone (unless you use some back asswords calendar ).

[Светлана Гэмм]

radical...
ну блин, понаехали тут, куда страна катится? Обама президент, атеисты хотят отменить Christmas that was made into a federal holiday into 1835 by Pres. Jackson...а потом спрашивают при чем тут евреи к making it a "holiday"...
what's next? October revolution, mandatory pot smoking, f#$% evrything that moves then have an abortion to prevent crime...God help us...
btw, Merry Christmas! :-)

[Gulya O]

А мы с семьей ездим в гости к родне мужа на Кристмас .......они правда более религиозны чем мы ну и ради Бога.......мы им не мешаем они нам не мешают......молитву прочитают потом дружно сядем за стол у дяди в доме отведаем вкусной еды .....пообщаемся с родственничками дальними и ближними обменяемся подарками......и довольные едем домой.......вот наш Кристмас.......а потом еще и с русскоязычными друзьями соберемся и весело отметим, подарки детям надарим.......красота 2 недели отдыхаем...... я дождаться не могу для меня это маленький отпуск......

[Олег Сах]

Oleg, why did you feel the need to single me out in your post?It was brought on by your denial of Galina's position in the posts placed before I revived the subject.

[Гена Гакд]

Рождество мой самый любимый праздник. А насчёт Христианской религии это одна из многочисленных еврейских сказок об избранном народе чобы можно было выжить в те далёкие жестокие времена, а теперь используют для зарабатывания денег, контроля, промывания мозгов... (md)

[Wagner]

насчёт Христианской религии это одна из многочисленных еврейских сказок об избранном народе чобы можно было выжить в те далёкие жестокие времена, а теперь используют для зарабатывания денег, контроля, промывания мозгов..
Не поняла...что именно еврейсая сказка? Христианская religia? Рождество?
Гена обясни пожалуиста как эти ужасные евреи зделали так что ВСЯ америка празднует рождество?

[Светлана Гэмм]

А мне нравится Генин взгляд на христианскую религию и на избранный народ... (md) А вот что сказал об этом народе один из отцов основателей об этом народе...говорит о многом об людях, которые основали эту страну, и их отличие от остального христианского мира...
I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more tocivilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed inblind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jewsto be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They arethe most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans andtheir empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have givenreligion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs ofmankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”
- John Adams,Second President of theUnited States

[Гена Гакд]

Рената тема о религии а не о народе. Евреи не могли отстоять себя и свою независимость в те далёкие времена и поэтому родился миф про мессию. Учениками или можно сказать пророками была образована Христианская секта, которая в итоге разрослась, и вместо бгодеяний принесла в мир враньё, алчность,смерть миллионам, пытки. В настоящее время ничего не изменилось всё тоже самое, извращённость священнослужителей, церковь это самая богатая организация в мире которая не платит налогов, всё за деньги, всё для денег и всё ради денег, хороша "духовность". Сказка о господнем ребёнке оказалась очень выгодным оружием власти держащих держать в повиновение рабов божих, заметьте даже тут не детей РАБОВ. А какая разница чей раб, раб и есть раб, то есть пыль.:-D

[Гена Гакд]

Рената, поговорим насчёт народов, каждая нация гордиться своими героями, многие нации считали себя избранным народом, и евреи не исключение. Примеров куча,монголы, итальянцы,британцы,германцы,турки,арабы,евреи, русские и у каждого был свой БОГ своя идея избранности в уничтожении других народов. Так что такое БОГ? Кому надо такой БОГ?
А бог это сами люди их непомерная жажда власти,жадность к деньгам, к тунеядству,за счёт других построить рай. Заметьте что в первую очередь, рабами становяться как раз представители тех наций в которых и зарождаеться миф ИЗБРАННОСТИ.:-D

[Анатолий Дкав]

Гена, надо полагать, много пострадал от евреев и христиан, столько "знания"и чувства!

[Гена Гакд]

Сарказм не уместен. Разве что национальные чувства об "избранности" играют. Если вы хотите рассказать нам, об вашей избранности перед другими?. Расскажите. Интересно будет послушать(почитать).

[Анатолий Дкав]

Отчего же это Ваши слова уместны а мои нет?
А насчет превосходства, это не ко мне, лучше всего к Геббельсу.

[Светлана Гэмм]

У Гены с историей немного плоховато - евреи были рабы в Египте до того, как стали "избранными", а избранность не значит быть лучше, а избрал их Бог, чтобы дать Тору и чтобы они выполняли законы Торы, а другим народам и религиям это выполнять необязательно (они только следуют семи законам Ноя). Вот именно поэтому евреи и не лезут в другие религии и не пытаются никого насильно обращать...так что не надо комплексу неполноценности давать выйти наружу ;-) во всем есть, что-то хорошее...
а кто еще считал себя избранным и были рабами? Африканцы что ли? :-)

[Khramaya]

ha!
religious polemics all over again - in Holiday spirit , indeed!
I am actually looking forward to NOT visiting any stores for about 6 weeks and then go in January and buy next years' gifts for all my office staff on clearance:-D . This year, after 15 years of my pleas, they agreed to play Christmas music only for one week - let's see if it will materialize.
Didn't we all already agree some time ago that we will never agree on this topic?:-) Keep your beliefs to yourself - don't force them on others, and don't let them influence policy - my idea of of religious harmony(F)

[Mike]

Sveta, nobody wants to cancel Christmas, feel free to celebrate it.. make sure you have a tree, the whole santa claus thing, the full complement of christian traditions.
You can finish it off with a traditional witch burning too and stone some heretics while u r @ it :).
Making it a federal holiday is a bit strange though, i wonder how it passed the supreme court challenge ( if it was ever challenged ).

[Светлана Гэмм]

you see - I am not as collectivistic narcissistic as you are - eventhough I don't celebrate Christmas myself, I don't feel the urge to deny the vast majority of people's opportunity to be with their family on that important for them day...for me it's like my friend's birthday party - not my holiday, but I share their joy and cheer for them...
I know how you feel about "stuff and santa clause thing", but according to Halakha regardless how much you renounce us, you are still pretty much a jew, just like Olympia Snowe(R) to the Republican Party...at the end of the day, we know you'll do the right thing, because we count on you...:-)

[Олег Сах]

Гена, я тебя, как ни странно, понимаю. Ты просто зря на евреях, как основателях иудео-христианской традиции, зациклился. Организованное христианство действительно хорошенько поставило полмира раком, но евреи чаще всего попадали под раздачу первыми.(Прошу прощения за стиль, гаврилино влияние) И Света тут права, евреи очень далеки от насаживания своей религии. Тот факт, что христиане базируют свою практику на иудейской традиции мало говорит о вине евреев в проделках христианской церкви. Мусульманской Коран тоже основан на Торе, как и Ветхий Завет, который этой самой Торой и является. Евреи в исламофашизме тоже виноваты?

[Светлана Гэмм]

мне кажется, или у тебя что-то коричневое на носу?(dt) наверно, в другой группе запачкался...;-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Christmas did pass the constitutional muster
actually it's the dissenting opinion...
"When government decides to recognize Christmas Day as a publicholiday, it does no more than accommodate the calendar of publicactivities to the plain fact that many Americans will expect on thatday to spend time visiting with their families, attending religiousservices, and perhaps enjoying some respite from preholiday activities.The Free Exercise Clause, of course, does not necessarily compel thegovernment to provide this accommodation, but neither is the Establishment Clause offended by such a step."
***********.becketfund.org/index.php/case/25.html

[Славик Саж]

Yeah Oleg, stop kissing Santa's ass. I already told me how you renamed Christmas tree into Hanukkah bush last year

[Олег Сах]

Isn't Santa's ass made out of chocolate? I heard kids in local Madrasah saying that.

[Khramaya]

All Santa's this year are requesting H1N1 shot - high exposure!
Occupational hazard, you know....

[Гена Гакд]

Олег,так оно и есть, сработал инстикт самосохранения народа в создании мифа, об едином боге и мессии или мессиях в каждой религии своего, и миф сработал.И теперь работает но в обратную сторону, рассажывая ненависть к народам кто исповедует по сути одну и туже религию но в разной интерпритации. Этот миф себя изжил, и многие народы возвращаются опять к язычеству с несколькими богами и множеством мессий которые и в настоящее время находятся среди нас.Но я благодарен мифу за прекрасный праздник Рождество и Сента Клауса который стал моим самым любимым праздником. А кто хочет быть избранным у бога, пускай, только не во вред окружающим.Как один доктор сказал "если вы начинаете говорить с богом и он вам отвечает что вас избрал, то вам пора навестить психиатра".:-D

[Mike]

i was just remembering something this morning.. for no apparent reason..
When god ordered jews to go into Canaan and kill all men, women, children, infants, goats, and everything else.. can't recall the exact quote.
Was this the first documented case of genocide?

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, you can't have it both ways...you either believe that God actually had ordered it, or you can't be bothered what the book that has no importance for you says...
yeah, do you also remember the death of the first born? I think it was the second documented...:-)
what do you think of this?
***********.youtube.com/watch?v=N63lhtx2q8o&feature=related
***********.youtube.com/watch?v=18CY7ZaCfzY&feature=related

[Mike]

Svetlana, i do believe that some events described in the bible actually took place.. Probably not exactly as described, but you know.. same as movies that are "based on real events".
So, in reality, probably the high priests guided the troops to commit atrocities in the name of god

[Khramaya]

guys, if you want to hear what some smart people are saying on this topic, watch some of those videos:
***********.ted.com/themes/is_there_a_god.html
Gotta love TED!

[Светлана Гэмм]

Here is my, from the top of my head, by no means an expert's comprarisson and parralel to what happened in Canaan...
-what do we know about the events and mistreatments that were taking place in that society? didn't they force their own women into prostitution (idk if it's bad enough for you tho (tr) :-D ) and sacrified their own children to their gods...don't we today go to wars with nations based on moral reasons - mistreating their own people, comitting atrocities?...and when we do (go to wars with other nations), don't inocent people get killed too?
idk...I can ask the jewish take on the event if you want, but it was thousands of years ago, standards and practices have changed a lot, even compared to 100 years ago...so just because it's in the Bible it's difficult for us to grasp...

[Mike]

yeah.. so they decided to fix it by killing all men, women, children , infants, and even goats :)
i think this is the same passage that the crusaders used to anihilate the entire nations ( in the name of god, of course ).

[Светлана Гэмм]

I think I kinda see how some biblical stories and the whole 'tire n'tion anihilation thingy forces one's consciousness to denounce Merry Christmass. But, if that uniquely pure one, wants to show them all, Walmart is still hiring...
Work on Christ's Birthday and stay away from the 'tire n'taton holiday.
(^) (F)

[Mike]

i typically work on xmas anyway ( usually catching up on my accounting ) and so does my wife..
but this question really had nothing to do with xmas, more with the religious debate as a whole.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Congratulation on your individual adherence to the anti-holiday spirit.
Religious debate as a whole, would probably mean to make this anti-holiday movement a National Awakening Day, perhaps.:-)
Миша, я тебя понимаю, это так трудно найти то самое место на планете обезьян, где всё будет ладненько и справедливо и все вокруг не раздражают своей посредственностью и без предрассудков. Думаю такое место есть только в раю, но это не значит, что прийдётся всю жизнь мучатся, Китайцы зовут, GDP, Economy и самое приятное - большинство атеистов almost no downside, except perhaps limited peripheral vision.(H)

[Mike]

Любиш ты меня посылать куда подальше.. ну я лучше тут останусь.. :) все таки принадлежу к самой быстро-растущему сегменту населения в США на данный момент - агностики..

[Гера Така]

Вот вот...
А кто же будет побеждать ехтремальный Ислам? Кто ???
Агностики?
Тапочки нам всем белые приснятся... с этими вот агностиками.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Мишунь, я не посылаю, наоборот буду рада, если останешься - нам таки хлопцы самим нужны. ;-) Но вижу, что тебе не уютно в нашем большинстве религиозном, хотя и толерантном, вoт и думаю за твое спокоствие...I think Capernicus would die to live in a tolerant society like we are..Oh, wait. he did die...but you rather seem to posess the colectivist qualities of Trotskiy - want to make everyone just like you...we don't even want you change for us, we love you the way you are...just leave people and their believes alone - be tolerant just like we are...:-) (F)

[Mike]

Гера, победили же радиакльный иудаизм и радикальное христиансвно и даже радикальный атеизм.. все они распались изнутри.. если посмотриш на эволюцию любой религии они все шли ( идут ) примерно одним путем.
Проблема радикального ислама это то что они вошли в свою crazy phrase в момент глобализации..
С ним сражатся нужно далеко не с религиозной стороны а как раз с secular.

[Mike]

Where do i want to make everyone just like me?? :)
We have already established that you are the one who wants to force people to follow some codified set of religious morals, while my views are all about personal responsibilities and personal freedoms.
People like you are the once who tortured Gallileo and burned scientists at the cross for suggesting that the earth is not flat .

[Гера Така]

Как раз - их аргумент, что сначала они победят (зарежут) всех безбожников, а потом займутся обращением всех заблудших. Так что агностики, готовьтесь!!!

[Mike]

Gera, lol is that a fact? The agnostics are the number one target of the militant Islam?

[Светлана Гэмм]

We have already established that you are the one who wants to forcepeople to follow some codified set of religious morals
not at all..I just follow my own conscience when deciding between right and wrong...a lot of it has to do with public policies and laws...but everyone does it even atheists agnostics, but they are very intolerant when people of religious convictions do the same...
Peoplelike you are the once who tortured Gallileo and burned scientists atthe cross for suggesting that the earth is not flat .
I thought you judged people individually...have Americans ever done it in the name of religion?

[Mike]

You can judge people individually and you can judge organizations individually..
For 100s of years religious freaks were in power in almost every country in the world.. they have left their mark of religious prosecution, intolerance and hatred. Our country was founded by those who escaped from that very religious prosecution and hence our country has been established to be secular with a very specific separation of church and state.
We don't allow religious freaks to run our court system or our public education for that very reason.
Atheist and agnostic are not inter-changeable.. atheists believe that there is no god, agnostics have no specific believes about gods.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I have news for you - for the last 200 years religious Americans have been running this country (in government and courts), and, as you know, no one has been persecuted because of their believes or non-believes...so you can't complain about religion in America...I hope you are smart enough to see the difference...
something doesn't come from nothing - our Founding Fathers, although had acknowledged that religious persecution is very wrong and not to be tolerated, had religous believes/values, and their believes had been guiding them in founding this country (like that people are created by the Creator and are born free, etc.)...they were not atheists or agnostics, they were Christians of different denominations...now you can't point out of a society that even remotely resembles the US in religious or non-religious tolerence and had been founded by people with no religious convictions, can you?

[Лина]

I thought you judged people individually...have Americans ever done it in the name of religion?
--------------------------------------------------------------
do Salem Witch Trials ring a bell?

[Лина]

but it was thousands of years ago, standards and practices have changed a lot, even compared to 100 years ago...so just because it's in the Bible it's difficult for us to grasp...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
so does this mean that the bible is outdated?

[Mike]

Svetlana, back when countries were founded everyone belonged to the church. Does it mean they were religious? I am not sure.. there are tons of pro-religious and anti-religious quotes from our founding fathers.. One thing that can be said for sure is that they founded US as a secular state, and they did it for a very good reason.
I am not sure why we are back to this conversation even...
I was the most interested in the first documented case of genocide..

[Dima Mov]

в 2003 газета Нью Йорк таймс проводил опрос своих читателей..... Каким вы готовы видеть президента США?
Черным-80% да
Еврея -80% да
Женщину -85% да
Папу Римского-80% Да
Гомосексуалиста- под 80% да
и только одит ответ отрицателен АТЕИСТА под 90% НЕТ

[Mike]

Дима, вот опрос
***********.gallup.com/poll/24832/Six-Americans-Think-US-Ready-Female-President.aspx
цифры немного не те что вы назвали.. и что?

[Dima Mov]

Миша это опрос 2006 года но он не сильно принципиально отличается от опроса 2003.
Главное что 84% американцев не готовы к президенту АТЕИСТУ......... А ВОТ ПОЧЕМУ КАК ВЫ ДУМАЕТЕ?(md)

[Mike]

btw, read the rest of the article
It is important to note that Americans are much more likely to saythey, personally, would be willing to vote for a president from aminority group than believe the country is ready for such a president.In a Gallup survey from 2003, roughly 9 in 10 Americans said they wouldvote for a female, black, or Jewish candidate for president. Four yearsearlier, a different Gallup poll found 79% saying they would vote for aMormon, 59% for a homosexual, and 49% for an atheist presidentialcandidate.

[Mike]

почему? потому что люди не рациональны в своем большинстве.. потому что легче руководсвоватся догмами, чем думать за самих себя..

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, я не знаю, что ты хочешь услышать о первом задокументированном...по-моему первым был Ноев потоп, когда всех смыло...ты хочешь цепляться за что тебе удобно, чтобы оправдать свои взгляды...твое право...
я же смотрю на людей действительно индивидуально, и на историю нашей страны (ну не была она построена, как страна анти-религиозная, а как толерантная к разным религиям - большая разница) и на сегоняшний Израиль (более гуманен, чем мы даже), и я прихожу к выводу, что больше согласна с людьми здесь с религиозными взглядами, с их мировоззрением даже не обязательно в религии, а больше в сегодняшних проблемах...поэтому и считаю, что полное отверждение религии нашем обществом не будет хорошо...история таких случаев еще не зафиксировала...

[Mike]

Потом - стихийное бедствие.. равно как и разрушение содома и гоморры, ну или по вашему бог из порушил..
А тут вот приказал евреям своими руками целые народы вырезать..
США посторена не как религиозная и не как анти-религиозная, but the important part it's built as a SECULAR country.
А про тех кто решил что фашизм=атеизм=коммунизм не понимают концепций не фашизма не атеизма не коммунизма :)

[Светлана Гэмм]

give your definition of secular?

here is the one I found and think it describes our country the best



: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation
but religious people, even priests themselves can't be precluded from serving in the government (and used to serve in the past) - it would be in violation of the no religious test claw...
but what it means is that the government (elected by people) doesn't take orders from any (unelected) church, but people with religious views and convictions are still free to serve in the government...I hope you see the difference...(sr)

[Светлана Гэмм]

you can look at the Canaan story ay way you want - like a teachablelesson of violating the God's moral will...spiritualsignificance...genocide that took place but shouldn't be repeated, butimmoral practices of the Canaanites should still be frowned upon..
like I said - anything that anti-religious, atheistic communists have done beats any Bible story in my book...

[Mike]

secular country is a country where no religion is imposed by, or sponsored by the state. Where people are free to practice any religion or no religion and it does not affect how they are valued and treated as citizens, where there could be no persecution based on your religion or lack thereof. Where the government can create no law to imposed any religion-based rule on the citizens.

[Mike]

communists are religions people.. only their religion is communism, we have discussed this many times before.
but Christians have a vast number of genocides under their belts, that in sum greatly exceeds even the communists ( especially as a percentage of the world population ). Most of them done in the name of god, of course.

[Светлана Гэмм]

100% agree about the secular country except this part is kinda distorted...
Where the government can create no law to imposed any religion-based rule on the citizens.
it should say (and it's according to our constitution, not an opinion) -
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause,("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clausesmake up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the FirstAmendment.
but lots of our laws are still rooted in religion, but we are prohibited from establishing a religion or prohibiting any...
listen, we'll never agree...you want to see it your way, distorting some statesments even from the Constitution, it's ok...:-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

if communism is a religion by itself that's done lots of harm, then the most reasonable next step would be scientology...they only harmed Tom Cruise, who counts he was dyslexic to start with...still very peaceful...I think they are right there with seculars and growing...(hu)

[Mike]

Currently, the Supreme Court applies a three-pronged test to determinewhether legislation comports with the Establishment Clause, known asthe "Lemon Test".First, the legislature must have adopted the law with a neutral ornon-religious purpose. Second, the statute's principal or primaryeffect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third,the statute must not result in an excessive entanglement of governmentwith religion

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, just remember it's the same people on the Supreme Court and in our government (using this kind of tests) who offer terrorists captured in other countries (Khalid Sheikh Mohamed) our civilian courts, who find rights for gays to marry in the Constitution, who usesour court system, appoint judges to promote their radical (in your case atheist) agenda because most people simply don't agree with them...it's not enough for them to live in the country that respects different religious believes, they are offended by anything religious (like displaying religious symbols on public property, etc.)...it's plain religious hostility which is acutally unconstitutional...you choose to side with them in this case because you feel the same, and then you side with the other side because you agree then..it must be fun to be you :-) but the Constitution doesn't change, it's just manipulated by radicals to support their point of view..

[Светлана Гэмм]

I am neutral in this inctance (since I am a religious minority) but Iheard arguments from both sides, and see what the atheists have been doingfor the last 15-20 yrs...they already tried to remove "In God we trust"from the money and the word God from the pledge of allegiance...that'show radical they are...

[Mike]

I see.. so our Supreme Court is atheist now, and radical? :) As soon as anyone disagrees with your doctrines they become radical? You are so funny..

[Светлана Гэмм]

yes, there is plenty of radicals on our Supreme Court...Ruth Ginsburg rings a bell?...former AUCL operative...her views include affirmative action for women in combat oprations, age of consent for sex should be lowered to 12, sex integrated prison, legalized prostitution,etc...yeah, it's pretty radical by most people's standards...

[Mike]

right, she is a radical because her views disagree with yours.. did you know that she's actually Jewish with a religious background? Also her best friend is justice Scalia, who is easily one of the most conservative judges.
But hey, she wants to legalize prostitution.. that makes her a radical.. did you know that judaism actually allows prostitution, even within the religious laws?

[Светлана Гэмм]

yeah, Jewish with religious backround...most American Jews (~80%) have religious beckground...or liberal religious background :-) ...speaking of пудрить мозги, liberalism им хорошо запудрил их..there is almost nothing liberal in judaism, and I don't mean orthodox Judaism...
so what if Judaism permits (prostitution)??...fist of all, Talmud doesn't...
1. we don't practice everything Judaism permits today...we evolve :-) ...we don't practise polygamy as well as stoning..
2. it's not only about me, I was talking about most peeople's views compared to hers...
being a freind with a conservative doesn't say anything about her as a judge - they don't agree on anything...her record even before she got to the Court says a lot...

[Khramaya]

by legalizing prostitution we would cut back on so many human rights abuses....not even talking about regulating the whole industry and imposing "safety"standards.
sorry, partially off-topic

[Mike]

prostitution is legal on a federal level btw.. individual states have anti-prostitution laws.. all but Nevada..
Svetlana, so you are saying that the word of god has expired? :)

[Светлана Гэмм]

so you are saying that the word of god has expired?
to many people - yes, and I was told this group is growing...:-|

[Mike]

for you, has it expired for you? :)
i mean if i was a religious freak, who believes that god gave us torah, i would at least believe what it says.. at the minimum that is..

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, why would you call yourself a religous freak? (hu)
no, honey, the Torah doesn't condone prostitution...it's the job of DNC on that federal level of course..(ch)
'No Israelite women shall be a cult prostitute, nor shall any Israeliteman be a cult prostitute. You shall not bring the fee of a whore or thepay of a dog (usually understood to refer to a male prostitute) intothe house of the Lord your God in fulfillment of any vow, for both areabhorrent to the Lord your God (Deuteronomy 23:18-19).' The practicepersisted until King Josiah suppressed it as part of his reforms (2Kings 23:7).

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, let me ask you a personal question...why would you even want to be with a prostitute?...wouldn't you want with a woman who really wants to be with you?...I mean if I was а godless nut, even then I wouldn't lower myself to sleeping with a whore...unless you are talking about a male prostitute?...(dt)

[Лина]

we don't practice everything Judaism permits today...we evolve :-) ...we don't practise polygamy as well as stoning..
-----------------------------------------------------------------
and yet again, you're saying that the bible is outdated, except for the parts that support your point of view...
furthemore, if we can pick and choose which parts of the bible we should observe and which should be eliminated, can't we do the same with the constitution? or do you consider the latter more sacred? incidentally, both had been written by men - progressive and enlightened for their time, except that the framers of the constitution had enough forethought to make provisions for future amendments.

[Mike]

Svetlana, why is this always about me??
Do you think Justice Jinsburg wants to be with a prostitute?? It's about personal freedoms, the notion that you seem to hate so much.
Now the passage is clear that no Israeli woman should be a prostitute, but it's also clear god has no issues with other prostitutes. It's also clear from the story of Judah.
Now, if we evaluate the combination of laws in torah it makes sense.
1) For a woman to have pre-marital sex is a deadly sin
2) For a man to masturbate is a deadly sin
3) The only legal way for unmarried man to have release is a non-jewish prostitute.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I love you interpretations - Clearly! - have you ever applied for the Chief Rabbinate? :-D
В одной еврейской группе видела тему - Измена с неевреем/кой грех?...:-)
well, it's not about what I love or hate...again I listed her views compared to the rest of the people...and clearly :-D she is out of the main stream...
you really want it legalized? why? you want a receipt?:-) how will you bring the product back? ;-)
if we legalize prostitution, we would have to regulate it, rate it (H), subsidize for those who can't afford it, because it becomes a right for everyone not just the rich, it's gonna become the main compaign issue - how to make it affordable, how to improve it...well, yeah, why not? something to think about...should be fun...and then of course, equality...hmmm...wives will use the services too...is it ok with you? just asking...:-)

[Mike]

what what??
A little too much Mashishevitch this morning? :)
Prostitution is already legal in Nevada.. the latest bunch of religious freaks who tried to ban it had it on a ballot and it got defeated with 2:1 margin, so maybe your view is a minority, maybe you are a fringe radical? :)
Regulation of the prostitution is not much different from the regulation of the nail salons or massage parlors.
If it's legal it's a legitimate business that creates jobs and pays taxes.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I don't drink MaSHinevitch in the morning anymore...I took your advice and smoke pot exclusively from now on, so I can be chill and mellow to continue a debate with you...:-)
I like how you throw at me all the alligations about the various prohibitions...I personally never even had a chance to vote to legalize it or not...but check out what happened in not so conservative and religious California...the majority voted NO on legalizing it...I wonder why..
how about the rest of Ginsburg's views? you are ok with it?

[Mike]

California voted "no" on legalizing prostitution? when was this put to vote?
Which Ginsburg views? She has written 100s of opinions as a member of supreme court.. and 1000s before that.

[Светлана Гэмм]

sorry, no Cali..SAN FRAN!!!! lost by 16 points...
***********.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/04/BALS13QIFE.DTL

[Mike]

ok, so in one city they lost in another they won.. what's the point?
even if it's 40% of all people.. or 30.. or even 10%, it's far from being a fringe radical view.

[Nам нам]

ё маё. классно. жаль что ни чё не понимаю. ну всё равно СУПЕР!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Перед глазами выресовывается картина как австралийские абаригены переписываются по русски!!!!!!!!!

[Гера Така]

Нмик, стыдно вам должно быть. Образованный человек. Пришли в гости и плохо себя ведёте!
И тоже пишете не грамотно.(N)
Аборигены!
Но не мы! а вы...

[Гера Така]

Mike,
Пробегись по темам. Он уже кое-где отметился.
He is a clown. He does not need to be here.

[Nам нам]

да я ж не русский.мне можно простить.я даже точки ставлю вместо запятых только потому что незнаю где здесь эта хренова зяпятая. увы не продвинутый пользователь.зато формулирую нрмально

[Гера Така]

Намик,
Так и я не русский.
Я Американский.
И со своим уставом в чужой монастырь - не хожу.
Сам бы тоже себя так вёл, если бы был приличным человеком.

[Nам нам]

Гера и Тараховский у вас такие супер улыбки.сразу видно люди хорошие с добрыми лицами. но вот как представлю вас за чтением устава в монастыре.....ВСЁ ВСЁ пошутил я. УХОЖУ К СЕБЕ

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike,
1. it's not one city...it's San Francisco - the most liberal radical place in the Western Hemisphere :-) ...enlighten me where else it was on the ballot...if they lost 16 points in SF, in most other places it would lost by 90%...anyway, legalizing prostitution is far from mainstream, and it has nothing to do with religion...people just would want to live in the kind of society where it's a norm to "buy" intimacy, I guess...
2. Ginsburg is out of mainstream, it's a fact...lowering age of consent to 12 is..mm...radical, among her other views (integrating the Boy and Girl Scouts and All Boy, All girl schools)...if you want, I can dig out her record and opinions...I wouldn't be calling anyone a radical if they were not (especially a Jew, you see I am nice to you :-) )...but she is the most out there on the court...
just out of curiosity, how much is it today?
I mean if people want to pay for sex, do they really need a legit business to do it?

[Лина]

people just would want to live in the kind of society where it's a norm to "buy" intimacy, I guess
-------------------------------------------------------------
don't many (I reallywanted to say most, but figured most men here would protest)men already do that? and I don't mean from prostitutes.

[Светлана Гэмм]

btw, Julia, here is your argument with the human trafficking...
Child prostitutionis also a problem in Nevada.[23][24][25]Las Vegas was identified by the FBI as one of 14 cities around the country with high rates of child prostitution.[26]Las Vegas Metro Police say roughly 400 children are picked off the streets from prostitution each year.[27]
TheU.S. Justice Departmenthas also named Las Vegas among the 17 most likely destinations forhuman trafficking.

[Светлана Гэмм]

In her 2007 report,Prostitution and trafficking in Nevada: making the connections,Melissa Farleypresentsthe results of numerous interviews with brothel owners and prostitutes,she states that most brothel prostitutes are controlled by outsidepimpsand that they suffer widespread abuse by brothel owners and customers.[36][37]Farley said that "What happens in legal brothels issexual harassment, sexual exploitation and sometimesrape";[38]she also stated that more than 80% of the women she had interviewed told her they wanted to leave prostitution.

[Лина]

she states that most brothel prostitutes are controlled by outsidepimpsand that they suffer widespread abuse by brothel owners and customers
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and women don't suffer abuse at the hand of their boyfriends or husbands? I used to work with a guy who was abused by the manager and senior manager to the point of a nervous breakdown. abuse is abuse - it can happen anywhere, and if prostitution is legalized, women are more likely to report it.

[Лина]

Child prostitutionis also a problem in Nevada.[23][24][25]Las Vegas was identified by the FBI as one of 14 cities around the country with high rates of child prostitution.[26]Las Vegas Metro Police say roughly 400 children are picked off the streets from prostitution each year.[27]

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· At least 300 adolescent girls are prostituted each month in the state of Georgia alone
child prostitution actually has moreto dowith poverty than the legalization of prostitution...

[Лина]

she also stated that more than 80% of the women she had interviewed told her they wanted to leave prostitution.
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and I (and trust me, I am not alone)want to leave the corporate world...

[Ирина S]

Вот ведь занесло Вас!!!(md)(md)(md)
Чтобы разрядить вашу полемику….Господа хорошие, люди дисертации защищают по ТОРЕ, настолько там много противоречий …
Нда...к чему я это....Светлана, ТОРА была, как руководсво и закон к действию для всех евреев и не евреев (юморили Боги), но потом как говорит история они разделились на два клана, но тем не менее они были евреи. Второе, когда вера становится религией, то , это становится политикой, главная задача политики владеть умами масс. Что в итоге мы наблюдаем и по сей день.Забавно так же, что все в мире конфессии думают также, что евреи-народ избранный, хотя на мой взгляд это была хороша "сделка"-"правильное время, правильный человек".

[Ирина S]

В двух словах, чтобы внести ясность так сказать и не вникая в долгууууююююю очень историю религии.
Немного фактов...
1700 д.н.э.(b.c.e.) случилось вот что, когда все верили во множество разных богов, некий Авраам пришел в народ и обладая определённой техникой риторики в массах, заявил о том, что есть один Бог (имя его не произносится), этот Бог пообещал ему землю необетованную (теперь называется Палестина) и детей(ему было 99 лет на тот момент, все помнят, что люди в то время жили дольше), собрал Авраам манатки свои и отправился гласить в народ о едином Боге по пути к земле обетованной. И это было до Моисея. С Моисея и начался иудаизм(религия), когда он выводил Египетских евреев. Моисей под руководством Бога(имя не произносится) вывел евреев из пустыни и сказал конкретно, что они должны делать, записав это в ТОРЕ, как первой книге.

[Ирина S]

Христиане первые не совсем те, о которых вы думаете, а именно палестинские евреи (с земли обетованной), которые поверили в сына из Назарета. И поначалу всё было нормально с ними, пока они не стали принимать в свою веру не евреев...так они разделились (бросая презренные взгляды друг на друга на рынке)..Спустя годы, евреи и все примкнувшие не выдержали...Так началось разделение евреев и христианства(на более чем 90 процентов состоявшее из евреев)....христианство столкнулось в конкуренции с пегинизмом(друиды), а не с иудейством, вообщем, это не так важно, так как многое в Библии всё равно взято из пегинизма и основа иудейства ...Когда император Константин стал христианином, христианство легализовалось, вышло из подполья.

[Ирина S]

Ислам, стал религией 200 лет спустя и не на пустом месте. Мухамед (прямой потомок пророка Ишмаеля, который был первым сыном пророка Авраама), понаслушавшись историй об Иудаизме и Христианстве, стал создавать своё...и понеслось...кстати, поскольку в отличии от других религий, этот был из бедуинских купцов, у них и появилось такое ярое желание "владеть миром" любым практическим способом только избранным, но при этом, держать остальное население под полным контролем, молиться, молиться и ещё раз молиться...за священную войну! Вообщем, по Корану...5 пророков были действительно в теме, это Авраам, Ноя и Адам-первые мусульмане-Моисей и Исус. Затем идут Александр первый, как пророк и конечно после него Мухамед, которому Аллах нашептал слова истины, и каждый раз молясь в сторону Иерусалима, они его "тихо ненавидят и думают отобрать". Вот такая "петрушка"...Другое мусульманство больше отвечает законам при Александре 1 и поэтому не такое дикое.

[Ирина S]

Кстати, вопрос у меня, почему отрицают Лилит тогда?(tr)
Цитирую первоисточник
????? ????? ?? - ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???
?????? .? 27
и сотворил всесильный человека по образу своему, по образу всесильного сотворилего , мужчину и женщину сотворил их.
Брейшит . 1. 27
???? ???? ???????-???? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????. ????? ? ??? ???
???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???
?????? ? . 22
И переустроил бог всесильный ребро , которое взял он у человека, в жену. и привёл её к человеку. И сказал человек : НА ЭТОТ РАЗ - это кость от кости моей, плоть от плоти моей, она наречена будет женою
Брейшит. 2 . 22
Почему в первый раз если переводить абсолютно дословно Адам и его спутница называются самцом и самкой. Во второй раз его спутница зовётся женою ( или женщиной , как употребляется это слово в современном иврите)?

[Ирина S]

Майк, судя по первоисточнику, если правильный перевод, то Лилит не проститутка, а первая феминистка!

[Светлана Гэмм]

Ирина, немного уточнения...первым еврей был таки да Абрам, который стал Абрахам, когда он с Богом заключил соглашение сделав обрезание...ему то Бог и пообещал Землю Обетованную и сделать потомков его народом...Моисей же вывел евреев из Египта, получил от Бога десять заповедей и привел их на Землю Обетованную, в которую сам зайти не мог в наказание...

[Mihail]

ТОРА была, как руководство и закон к действию для всех евреев и не евреев (юморили Боги), но потом как говорит история они разделились на два клана, но тем не менее они были евреи.
Извиняюсь за необразованность. А это как? Не евреи, тем не менее евреи?

[Ирина S]

Извиняюсь за необразованность. А это как? Не евреи, тем не менее евреи?
Здорово, правда! когда палестинские евреи стали принимать в их веру не евреев, им тоже дана была ТОРА!

[Mihail]

В смысле, что тем кому дали ТОРУ, стали евреями? а почему на два клана поделились. Может дадите какую-нибудь ссылку почитать? а то я тут вас от дела отнимать буду

[Лина]

Pomoemy ona imeet v vidy evreev i tex evreev kotorie prinyali krist'yanstvo - dva klana.

[Ирина S]

Pomoemy ona imeet v vidy evreev i tex evreev kotorie prinyali krist'yanstvo - dva klana.
Да, Лина, верно, спасибо!(F)

Может дадите какую-нибудь ссылку почитать?
Нет у меня ссылок, к сожалению, это я умничаю.(H)

[Mike]

When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," 14she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil todisguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which ison the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grownup, she had not been given to him as his wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her bythe roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
"And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
17 "I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
"Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.

[Светлана Гэмм]

that's what I found...
Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.
Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, 18 is the proper age for marriage and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Bar mitzvah is simply the age when a person is held responsible for his actions and minimally qualified to marry. If you compare this to secular law, you will find that it is not so very far from our modern notions of a child's maturity. In Anglo-American common law, a child of the age of 14 is old enough to assume many of the responsibilities of an adult, including minimal criminal liability. Under United States law, 14 is the minimum age of employment for most occupations (though working hours are limited so as not to interfere with school). In many states, a fourteen year old can marry with parental consent. Children of any age are permitted to testify in court, and children over the age of 14 are permitted to have significant input into custody decisions in cases of divorce.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Certainly, a 13-year-old child is capable of knowing the differencebetween right and wrong and of being held responsible for his actions,and that is all it really means to become a bar mitzvah.

[Светлана Гэмм]

***********.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0016_0_16127.html
Mike, you may like it...:-) very informative...
and your theory about releasing something didn't materialize...:-)
There is evidence in the respons a literature thatJewish women engaged in prostitution, and no doubt there were also Jewswho lived on pimping, but there is no data to the extent. The halakhahliterature in the Middle Ages mentions several regulations againstJewish prostitutes and against Jews who frequented gentile prostitutes,but the prostitute was entitled to claim her fee (Rema). At the end ofthe Middle Ages it was laid down that a married man who frequentedprostitutes was obliged to give his wife a divorce.

[Лина]

you keep bringing up marriage, yet the age of consent that Judge Ginsburg was referring to, was the consent to take part in sexual activity - not the same thing as marriage. you yourself stated "Certainly, a 13-year-old child is capable of knowing the differencebetween right and wrong and of being held responsible for his actions,and that is all it really means to become a bar mitzvah."

[Лина]

At the end ofthe Middle Ages it was laid down that a married man who frequentedprostitutes was obliged to give his wife a divorce.
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well that's adultery... but what's wrong with a single man visiting a prostitute? what's the difference whether he spends $200 on dinner or just hands her the money - if he's still getting sex at the end of the night?