Are you a Liberal or a Conservative? Basic concepts inside

[Славик Саж]

What Does It Mean To Be A Liberal?
You are concerned with individual rights & liberties. You are often in favor of government intervention and government programs (pro-regulation). You lean toward anti-business. You get excited by new government initiatives like sending man to Mars.
A left of center or "liberal" individual tends to philosophically believe in a majority of these political positions:
* Abolition of the death penalty
* Believe in affirmative action
* Belief in reinstating the Fairness Doctrine
* Disapprove of teacher-lead prayer in classrooms & school sponsored religious events
* Equal opportunities for men and women in the military
* Favor equal opportunity & denial of gender differences
* Government-rationed & taxpayer-funded medical care (example: Universal Health Care Coverage)
* Government spends big on social programs (also higher taxes to fund these programs)

[Славик Саж]

2. ....cont.
* Income redistribution (through progressive taxation)
* Legalizing abortion & pro-choice
* Legalizing same-sex marriages
* Oppose an American foreign policy of continuous intervention
* Oppose domestic wire-tapping & other intrusive acts (as authorized in the Patriot Act)
* Oppose full private property rights
* Support protection of our environment
* Support of labor unions
* Support Globalism ("one world government")
* Support obscenity and pornography as our First Amendment right
* Support teaching comprehensive sexual education programs in schools (as opposed to abstinence-only programs)
* Support a "Living Constitution" reinterpreted for modern times (not how it was originally written & intended)
* Support disarmament treaties
* Support gun control laws
* Support government programs to rehabilitate criminals in society
* Taxpayer-funded public education system
***********.uselections.com/ideology/left-liberal.shtml

[Славик Саж]

What Does It Mean To Be A Conservative?
You resist change simply for the sake of change. You are cautious and pro-status quo. You Invoke a "good steward" mentality and are careful with management of resources. You tend to be pro-business, anti-tax and anti-regulation.
A right of center or "conservative" individual tends to philosophically believe in a majority of these political positions:
* Actively support a return of prayer in schools
* Believe in our Second Amendment 'Right to Keep and Bear Arms'
* Believe that parents (not schools or teachers) should educate children about sex
* Believe in a strong national defense
* Economic allocative efficiency (as opposed to popular equity)
* Endorse choice in education
* Endorse lower taxes & tax cuts (favoring the upper class)
* Favor the death penalty
* Favor stronger law enforcement and anti-crime laws

[Славик Саж]

2. ....cont.
* Generally don't care much for the United Nations
* Oppose same-sex marriages
* Staunchly pro-life and want to stop abortions
* Support free enterprise
* Support limited government
* Support strong public morality
* Support laws against pornography & obscenities
* Support enforcement of current immigration laws
* Support private medical care & retirement plans
* Support tightening of our border security
* Want to open foreign markets to products made in the USA
* Want to weaken or eliminate failed social support programs
***********.uselections.com/ideology/right-conservative.shtml

[Khramaya]

"You lean toward anti-business"
-(md) (md) (md) - this is so far from reality... look at what Clinton adm was doing and what was happening in the business world during those 8 years.
I think this whole "gradation" does not take into account various "fractions" - far-left ( pro-union, anti-business - crazy kind) is probably very EMOTIONALLY close to protectionist -in different aspects - values of far-right ( intolerance to immigrants, religious fervor) ..... In fact, most reasonably thinking people are neither "far" anything. They understand that you look at the world with different eyes at different moments:
- you can see a world as a consumer, or as an investor- shareholder, or as a humanitarian, or as a citizen, or as business owner -in different circumstances and this nuanced approach helps you develop an outlook that is not black or white, but real.

[Олег Сах]

I also think that the definitions that Slavik "надыбал" are too simplistic and misleading. What's alarming is that politicians use these stereotypes to appeal to masses.

[Славик Саж]

Of course it's too simplistic. The key is majority of these political positions

[Mike]

this is ultra-ultra left vs ultra-ultra right i guess...
i really don't know anyone who is anti-business no matter how liberal they are for example

[Олег Сах]

For Mike:Anti-business does not mean that someone sits around and says "Boy, I hate business" it's when they want to build a factory and a person says, "Boy, what will that do to the environment ?", or if they want to open a Walmart and the same person says...you got the idea.

[Алексей Пэтк]

Oleg, I agree with your point a couple of posts below. (Y)

Also:

"* Want to open foreign markets to products made in the USA"

How is that even related to conservative/liberal???

[Mike]

Oleg, hm.. i think "what will it do to the environment" is an essential question that needs to be asked before you build a factory... so maybe not the best example :)

[Славик Саж]

Guys, это что-то типа курс молодого бойца. Все ниже отписавшиеся ИМХО уже давно решили за какую команду болеют.
Там не всё дословно и это не pass/fail exam for party membership. Но если так хотите то поставьте галочку возле каждого пункта с которым согласны с скажите потом что "я всегда был либерал, а после этого опроса вижу что консерватор"

[Олег Сах]

Mike, my example of the factory and environment was a typical example of an anti-business thinking. The factory maybe clean, it also may be replacing another, more dangerous factory. It also maybe a boon to a dying town, bringing thousands of jobs, attracting retail, building schools, etc. But the anti-business person will mention environment first.

[Мария]

Like the Democrat legislature in California who cares more about the tiny smelt fish in the Delta than about thousands of lost jobs in the Central Valley because of the lack of water for irrigation.
This is a man created drought and a prime example of the anti-business thinking. :-|

[Мария]

It is a very typical example , don't get distracted by the details. For progressive libs it's all about the Gaia first, human beings -later.

[Олег Сах]

1. Я вот что заметил, большинство людей либерально-демократического толка (чтобы избежать ярлыков, скажем что здесь они представлены теми кто поддерживают реформу здравоохранения или теми кто никогда не слушал целой передачи Глена Бека, но готовы кастрировать его тупым ножом) зарабатывают себе на пропитание службой в public sector. Или имеют бизнес или практику зависящую от контрактов с public structures.

[Олег Сах]

2. Я практически никогда не встречал человека поддерживающего Обаму, голосующего за демократов или ратующего за передачу денег тратящихся на войну на нужды образования, который:
а) has sold his/hers talent/skill/profession for compensation to a highest bidder
b) has offered service or merchandise for sale on the free market
c) relies on free-market based economy (only) for his/hers entire household income
Люди перечисленные выше оказываются обычно правее меня. Люди же работающие на город/государство/штат/имеющие бизнес базирующийсся на городских/штатных/гос. работах обычно намного левее Маркса. Не находите?

[Васюкова]

Олег, конечно каждый человек поддерживает то, что ближе к его интересам. Главное, чтоб этих, которые работают с государством или в public sector и еще тех, кто от них ждет подачек, не стало больше, чем нас. На их "размножение" и направлена политика нынешней левой администрации. Плебс форева!
Кстати, это главным образом и сломало хребетдревнему Риму. Граждан стало много, граждане не хотели работать, но "имели право". Их нужно было ублажать, с ними нужно было заигрывать, а ресурсы истощались. Даже войны не помогали. Рос гос аппарат (в Риме, в провинциях), росли расходы на плебс. Неработающие граждане морально разлагались и хотели только хлеба и зрелищ.Вокруг женабирались сил молодые дикие варвары...

[Мария]

An ironic part is that the today conservatives are actually the classic liberals. And those who call themselves liberals, are just statists/socialists. For them it's all about control of other people lives and money.

[Олег Сах]

Спасибо, девушки. Главное, чтоб этих, которые работают с государством или в public sector и еще тех, кто от них ждет подачек, не стало больше, чем нас.Мне нравятся методы, которыми они пытаются это проделать. К примеру, все доминиканцы, пуэрториканцы, гаитяне и т.п. автоматически отправлены в разряд "нуждающихся". Под это дело тратятся миллиарды долларов: программы, спец школы, language centers, жилье, медицинское обслуживание. Я спросил одного "все-взять-и-поделить" деятеля, почему сицилианцы устроились в Америке без государственной помощи и не жужжат, а доминиканцам нужна вся мощь вывернутых карманов налогоплательщиков. При этом все эти сицилианцы живут в своих домах, а доминиканцы в проджектах и никак не могут поколениями из них вылезти. Ответ был что-то типа: "как можно их сравнивать?" А почему бы и нет? И те и другие приехали сюда безграмотными, из жуткой нищеты. Только первые вынуждены были работать, а вторым успели "помочь".

[Зингман]

Oleg, it occured to me that the Dems wouldn't want to mess with Sicilians and how they got where they are... (I'm from Jersey myself) :-D so are wise to stick to the Dominicans for now, if the Domslikethe projects and welfare so thoughtfully doled out by the Dems...))

хоть смейся, хоть плачь:'(:-)

Maria, great definitions,(Y) if only....

[Марат Гэмь]

Валентина,на мой взгляд здесь все очевидно.Мексиканцы и при Буше переползали на брюхе через границу,а что тогда говорить о нынешней администрации.У меня есть надежда,как и у многих здравомыслящих людей,что через три года произойдет республиканская революция,как произошла в свое время во времена Картера.И на смену Обаме придет достойный лидер на долгие годы.Очень хочется в это верить.И тогда может всей этой шушере перекроют кислород.

[Олег Сах]

BTW, one thing just occurred to me: my example with public sector jobs does not work the other way around. I know lots of people who hold public sector jobs and are pretty conservative. It's just that I don't know any liberals earning their bread by free market, old fashioned, supply & demand means.

[Мария]

There is a section of private sector where liberals found a niche -green businesses ( huge subsidies from uncle Barak)

[Мария]

Oleg, how about George Soros? He is an ultimate socialist, but made his big bucks through the evil Capitalism.

[Олег Сах]

Boris, I knew you will be an interesting addition when I was accepting you in the group. Military contractors and farm subsidy recipients might be Republicans or RINOs, whatever. I am sure that deep down they are pro-big government whores, or, they have to be real hypocrites.

[Олег Сах]

Maria, from Wikipedia:
He has stated that his intent was to earn enough money on Wall Street to support himself as an author and philosopher — he calculated that $500,000 after five years would be possible and adequate.
Сорос никогда не открывал свой бизнес, не зависел от рынка сбыта или от рынка рабочей силы. Он гениальный финансист, который делал деньги для того чтобы хватило на жизнь философа и писателя. Благодаря своему гению он сделал больше денег чем планировал, но делание денег не было его целью.

[Лина]

BTW, one thing just occurred to me: my example with public sector jobs does not work the other way around. I know lots of people who hold public sector jobs and are pretty conservative.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Your example doesn't work. Period. I have never held a public sector job...but I believe at least some of your family's benefits are provided by the government.

.
It's just that I don't know any liberals earning their bread by free market, old fashioned, supply & demand means.
--------------------------------------------------------------
you really need to get out more.

[Лина]

And something else I've recently learned that I believe applies to your family, Oleg: "despite investment collapses worldwide, active and retired participants in <FONT color=#006699>New York
City's teacher pension system draw an exceptional taxpayer-guaranteed return of 8.25 percent annually on savings funds known as 403(b) plans. "

Wow, I sure wish the taxpayers would guarantee all of my investments... People who live in glass houses should really refrain from throwing stones.

[Олег Сах]

Where did you find any contradictions? My wife works harder than most of the people who make over $200K, if she gets good benefits it's only a fair reimbursement for an actual service that she provides: teaching children.

[Лина]

how very hypocritical of you... do you know how many people work50 hour weeks (weekends, late nights, holidays...)for only $40,000/year? and they don't get every holiday off, not to mention 2 months in the summer... and the service they provide is no less valuable, yet you wouldn't know it by looking at their paychecks or benefits -none of which,by the way,are subsidized by our tax dollar.

[Славик Саж]

I would rather work holidays then educate pregnant teenagers and gang members.
Teachers don't get paid enough. Period.

[Wagner]

do you know how many people work50 hour weeks (weekends, late nights, holidays...)for only $40,000/year? and they don't get every holiday off, not to mention 2 months in the summer... and the service they provide is no less valuable, yet you wouldn't know it by looking at their paychecks or benefits -none of which,by the way,are subsidized by our tax dollar.

Yet, once again Lina is throwing red herrings into the conversation....
What is the point of this argument? In our more or less free market economy every single one of those people that Line mentioned have a right and an opportunity to leave their 50hr, $40K jobs and become a teacher and garner all of those faboulous benefits. Why don't they?
Well because it is one of the more difficult, thanklessjobs that majority of people don't want to for any money

[Lena G]

I couldn't resist not to post it here:
1.THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER
OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself
MODERN VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks th e ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.
to be con-ed

[Lena G]

2.CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.
How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, ‘It’s Not Easy Being Green.’
Acorn stages a demonstration in front of the ant ’s house where the news stations film the group singing, ‘We shall overcome.’ Rev. Jeremiah Wright then has the group curse God for the grasshopper’s sake.
Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.
Finally, the EEOC & nbsp;drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

[Lena G]

3.The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ants food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around him because he doesn’t maintain it.
The ant has disappeared in the snow.
The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.
MORAL OF THE STORY: Be careful how you vote in 2010.

[Мария]

I thought it may fit the theme ( conservatives, liberals,capitalism)
Jesus the Capitalist
1. Michael Moore likes to claim that the Bible supports socialism. But God is not on his side.
Michael Moore has been bashing capitalism, its excesses, and its lack of concern for workers and their exploitation. A story that backs Moore up comes from a reliable source. It’s a story of naked capitalism ignoring the rights of workers and arbitration.
A farmer had some crops that needed to be harvested and he hired day laborers, agreeing to pay them $100 for working a 12-hour shift. The farmer was in a hurry to get his crops harvested, so he went out again two hours into the shift and hired more workers. He continued to look for laborers throughout the day, bringing in more laborers every hour. Finally, at seven o’clock, one hour before sunset, he brought in a dozen more workers to help finish the job.

[Мария]

2. He then lined the workers up to give them their pay and he paid first the workers who had only worked an hour. Those who stood, sweat dripping from their bodies from a 12-hour shift, smiled when they saw the one-hour hires get $100. They figured that meant they’d get paid extra. But to their horror, the farmer also paid them only $100.
They confronted the capitalist with the charges of favoritism and unjust discrimination. Rather than offering arbitration, the farmer responded, “I’m not doing you any wrong. Didn’t you agree to work for $100? Take your money and leave. I’ll pay the people who worked an hour the same as I paid you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want with my own money?”

[Мария]

3. Who is this capitalist exploiter of workers who thinks he can pay people whatever he wants?
Most theologians will tell you this landowner represents none other than Christ himself. The names, currencies, and exact quotes have been changed, but the essence of the story Christ told in Matthew 20 hasn’t.
It’s a helpful story to remember when Michael Moore is out telling us that capitalism is anti-Jesus.
The rest can be read here
********pajamasmedia.com/blog/jesus-the-capitalist/

[Олег Сах]

Why the left does not get it?
Maria, we have these new friends, "the commies". I am sure that they would say: "This is too simplistic, you have to look at grasshoppers roots, what if his father have molested him, what if he lacks the basic skills that ant possesses, etc."

[Мария]

I have heard on our local talk radio an interesting definition of liberalism ( it was from a conservative rabbi) :
Liberalism- is a femininized version of civilization.
This came as an aswer to a caller's question "Why all liberals are drawn to dictators". And the rabbi made an analogy with the pretty girls at schools who are drawn to the biggest bullies.
I thought it was very illuminating!(H)

[Павел Дуд]

Лина Т.:
do you know how many people work50 hour weeks (weekends, late nights,holidays...)for only $40,000/year? and they don't get every holidayoff, not to mention 2 months in the summer
А как эти несчастные люди учились в школе? Как провели юность? Наверное, корпели над учебниками или осваивали основы своей будущей рабочей или фермерской профессии? Или они в своём подавляющем большинстве прослонялись всю юность - своё золотое время - без дела? За всё надо платить, Лина. А вообще-то говоря что страшного работать 50 часов в неделю? Я работаю значительно больше.

[Мария]

Павел, всё правильно! По закону сохранения энергии:-D В молодости отгулял своё, теперь вкалывай.
Кстати, кто в молодости трудился не покладая рук, у того это вошло в привычку, так сказать...
Мой муж 70- 80 часов в неделю пашет. Сокращать начал, а то раньше было под все 100.

[Лина]

Pavel, sorry to disappoint you, but I was referring to college graduates in my example. Please read my post within the context of Oleg's 21:35 post. Again, those that have never worked in the corporate world, especially the financial sector, will continue spouting the virtues of of the free market
(Oleg:"It's just that I don't know any liberals earning their bread by free market, old fashioned, supply & demand means. ") while themselves reaping the benefits of union jobs (Oleg's wife). My suggestion is that people frst try practicing before they attempt to preach.

[Лина]

My wife works harder than most of the people who make over $200K, if she gets good benefits it's only a fair reimbursement for an actual service that she provides: teaching children.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so your family being the beneficiary of a taxpayer subsidized pension is acceptable, because your wife works hard for it and no one else does? how is this different from minorities insisting that they are entitled to government assistance, affirmative action, and other aid... simply because they've been victims of slavery, discrimination, oppression...? What happened to "earning their bread by free market, old fashioned, supply & demand means"? It seems to me that it's not the liberals that are having a problem with this concept.
By the way, your wife's benefits don't really concern me, but the hypocrisy of your post does.

[Lena G]

Political Science for Dummies
1.DEMOCRAT
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
You feel guilty for being successful.
You push for higher taxes so the government can provide cows for everyone.
REPUBLICAN
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
So?
SOCIALIST
You have two cows.
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.
COMMUNIST
You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it.
It is expensive and sour.
CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.
BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
Under the new farm program the government pays you to shoot one, milk the other, and then pours the milk down the drain.
to be con-ed

[Lena G]

2.AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one.
You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows.
You are surprised when one cow drops dead.
You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses.
Your stock goes up.
FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows..
You go on strike because you want three cows.
You go to lunch and drink wine.
Life is good.
JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains.
Most are at the top of their class at cow school.
GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour.
Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year.
to be con-ed

[Lena G]

3.ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows but you don't know where they are.
You break for lunch.
Life is good.
RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have some vodka.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You have some more vodka.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
The Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have.
TALIBAN CORPORATION
You have all the cows in Afghanistan , which are two.
You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature's private parts.
You get a $40 million grant from the US government to find alternatives to milk production but use the money to buy weapons.
IRAQI CORPORATION
You have two cows.
They go into hiding.
They send radio tapes of their mooing.
POLISH CORPORATION
You have two bulls.
Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them.

[Lena G]

4.BELGIAN CORPORATION
You have one cow.
The cow is schizophrenic.
Sometimes the cow thinks he's French, other times he's Flemish.
The Flemish cow won't share with the French cow.
The French cow wants control of the Flemish cow's milk.
The cow asks permission to be cut in half.
The cow dies happy.
FLORIDA CORPORATION
You have a black cow and a brown cow.
Everyone votes for the best looking one.
Some of the people who actually like the brown one best accidentally vote for the black one.
Some people vote for both.
Some people vote for neither.
Some people can't figure out how to vote at all.
Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which one you think is the best looking cow.
CALIFORNIA CORPORATION
You have millions of cows.
They make real California cheese.
Only five speak English.
Most are illegal.
Arnold likes the ones with the big udders.

[Mihail]

Плохой сегодня день. Я с помощью этой темы выяснил, что я либерал. Прочитал определения в самом начале темы и вот, что запало в душу:
What does it mean to be a Liberal?
...
You get excited by new government initiatives like sending man to Mars. ...
Про Марс не скажу, но про Луну действительно считаю, что было бы здорово, заодно создали бы ракеты, чтоб от других стран не зависеть, когда спутники надо запускать. Много чего "заодно" можно было бы сделать самим. Не все ж в Китае закупать.
Не хотелось бы оставаться либералом. Не то чтобы считаю их плохими людьми. У меня много друзей таких взглядов, еще больше противоположных. Но жить в черно-белом мире не интересно.

[Мария]

Why Conservatives Have Trouble Getting Elected
<span style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; color: rgb(0, 0, 113);"> By W. hudson


The reasons that I could never get elected to any government positionis the same reason why conservatives have a tough time getting electedand, if they end up elected, can’t govern in this era of theill-educated voter. First I’ll lay out my main principles…Leave me aloneStop taxing meShove your regulation


The reason that I could never get elected to any government position isthe same reason why conservatives have a tough time getting electedand, if they end up elected, can't govern in this era of theill-educated voter. First I'll lay out my main principles...
Leave me alone
Stop taxing me
Shove your regulation
TBC

[Мария]

That'sabout it. Though there are complexities and nuance contained in them,these are the main tenets of modern conservatism simply put. Andtherein lies the problem. How can one get elected when his basic tenetsare that government should do less, stay out of our lives, and mostlygo unnoticed and unseen? In essence a conservative is saying: "Elect meand I'll do nothing for you." It's a tough message to sell in a daywhen people have lost touch with the American principles that arecontained in those very tenets.

[Мария]

Leave Me Alone
Thetrue conservative American does not want welfare or governmentinvolvement in his daily life. A real American wants government to shutup about his kids, his education, his religion and his home and hearth.A real American wants the freedom to make his own way in life, to grabfor the brass ring without government holding him back. A true Americanis a self-reliant, family centric being that simply wants hisgovernment to leave him alone. This means that government must alsostay out of it when men fail, too, and a good conservative understandsthis.

[Мария]

Stop Taxing Me
Areal American understands that some taxes are necessary but feels thatthe up to 60 percent of his income (depending on where you live) thatis currently stolen by greedy government do-nothings is exorbitant. Atrue American does not want to pay for illegal aliens to get hearttransplants, or mentally disturbed people to get sex changes, or forgovernment to pay for infanticide. A real American also has sometrouble seeing his hard earned tax dollars going to third worlddictators as "aid." And a real American really hates it whenpoliticians and government placemen retire at age 50 to live on manytimes more money in government pensions than anyone in the privatesector is ever likely to see. The waste, graft, and corruption ingovernment is something that makes the average American wary of hisgovernment but makes a conservative sick to his stomach.

[Мария]

Shove Your Regulations
Atrue American does not want a government hack coming into his back yardto tell him how to build a shed and then charging him, perhaps,hundreds of dollars, for a "permit" for the privilege of building it. Areal conservative has a problem with a government forcing itself on himat every turn charging him fees and licensing costs as he tries tostart a business that will feed both his family and his employee'sfamilies. A real conservative knows that NO business is "too big tofail," nor should any ever be considered so.
These principlesessentially mean that conservatives have expectations that the citizentells government what to do, not the other way around, and that hewants the room to make his own way free from constant interference andnanny state hectoring.

[Мария]

Therewas a time when Americans celebrated this independence of spirit. Thiscelebration also helped instill that reticence for overreach in eachsucceeding generation. In fact, there was more than "a time" when thiswas celebrated, it was the normal American principle until theloathsome counter culture got all up in everyone's business -- and eventhe hippies, dippies, and yippies started off wanting "the man" toleave them alone even as their cause quickly devolved into anauthoritarian we-know-better-than-the-man end game.
Unfortunately,as the yippies began to realize that the hated democracy they lived ingave them the right to work inside the system to obliterate it, and asthese same anti-Americans weaved their baleful influence into oureducation system starting most heavily in the 1960s, they've displacedthe American spirit with a cancer called modern liberalism.

[Мария]

Nowour educational system teaches dependence, fealty to big government,and self-loathing. It teaches that American exceptionalism is bad andthat European ideas are "better."
As a result of thismis-educational system we are now weighted down with, we are disgorginginto the greater world from those flagellation stations we call"schools" citizens that mindlessly expect that politicians exist onlyto "give us stuff." The individualist spirit that expected governmentto leave us alone is now subdued, replaced with a spirit of looking togovernment as mommy. It is a mommy, though, with apron strings thatstrangle us to death.
And then conservatives stride forth askingfor votes and are portrayed as uncaring because they say cut taxes, cutregulations, cut big government.

[Мария]

Then,if lucky enough to get elected and in order to be loved by the mediaand indulging a misplaced concept of "the people" born of theirWashingtonitis, they turn into liberals when elected. They do so in amistaken belief that it is the only way of being reelected, but it is aself-induced fantasy born of their craving for power.
And thatleaves me asking my government to get lost. And it also so firmlycloses the door on any chances I might have to affect my governmentfrom the inside.
Quite the dilemma, isn't it?
And the answer, the solution to this dilemma?
Retakethe initiative in our schools. Get rid of the anti-American educationalestablishment. Bust the unions, fire the tenured professors, dump thefalse doctrines of "wymin's" studies, stop pretending Marx is a worthyphilosopher, and again teach our children why America is a great nation.

[Мария]

Wecan bring back our American first principles. But it won’t be easy andit won’t be quick. It also won’t happen with electing just one leader.It will take all of us as a movement to effect these changes to returnus to our greatness. It will take all of us to defeat the moralrelativism so firmly entrenched in our schools. It will take aconcerted effort to defeat this anti-Americanism but it can be done.
Thanks for reading

[Mike]

Maria, i love the "government to leave the people alone" part..
repeal the Blue Laws finally!!!

[Светлана Гэмм]

Definitions of the term anti-Americanism have been much debated. German newspaper publisher and political scientist Josef Joffesuggests five classic aspects of the phenomenon: reducing Americans tostereotypes; believing the United States to have an irremediably evilnature; ascribing to the U.S. establishment a vast conspiratorial poweraimed at utterly dominating the globe; holding the United Statesresponsible for all the evils in the world; and seeking to limit theinfluence of the United States by destroying it or by cutting oneselfand one's society off from its polluting products and practices.[11] Other advocates of the significance of the term argue that anti-Americanism represents a coherent and dangerous ideological current, comparable to anti-Semitism.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Anti-Americanism has also been describedas an attempt to frame theconsequences of U.S. policy choices asevidence of a specificallyAmerican moral failure, as opposed to whatmay be unavoidable failuresof a complicated foreign policy that comeswith superpower status.
I believe many people on the left fit the description...so it's far to call them anti-american...

[Лина]

and I believe that you're a misguided bible-thumping hypocrite. isn't there something in that book of yours about not judging others?

[Светлана Гэмм]

again, it is not pertaing to anyone personally...but it's just a trend and observation from listening and reading a lot of people...and it's from wiki, so not my definition or description
read some more...
********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism

[Светлана Гэмм]

I do...and what I posted perfectly decribes people who hold anti-american views or "blame America first" mentality...sorry if some people don't like when others don't appreciate the criticism of some views..

[Лина]

not pertaining to anyone personally, just to "many on the left" - hint hint. typical soviet mentality -anyone who doesn't share your (or your comrades') views is automatically labeled anti American or an enemy of the state.

[Светлана Гэмм]

hwo about that for the sophisticated people who claim to know and understand -
if a foreign national is constantly saying that America is a bad imperialistic country, American companies are evil, Americans are stupid and ignorant, etc. I think it makes perfect sense to say he doesn't like America much, or call him anti-american...
why would I apply a different standard to an American who thinks along the same lines?

[Лина]

Svetlana keeps forgetting that our founding fathers were the first to criticize the status quo, and gave us the first amendment, thus ensuring that we could continue doing the same without fearing persecution.

[Светлана Гэмм]

there is a difference between criticism and twisting the facts, use conspiracy theories, lies like Michael Moore does - 9/11 consipary, saying Cuba has better healthcare than US, Afghanistan is the war for oil (not even Iraq, Afghanistan) etc...the guy is flithy rich because of capitalism, yet he made his money pedicting capitalism in a horrible light...yeah, Moore is anti-american in my book...

[Светлана Гэмм]

like I said, critisism is good and healthy...I criticize my husband all the time sometimes, yet love him so much...but I do it in a degrading manner, constantly pointing out his shortcomings (not that he has much :-) ), accuse of his something that he never did, then it's a whole different story...
if I really thought he was so awful, I would not marry him in the first place or divorced him long time ago...:-)

[Мария]

Ira, why do you feel so offended about the "anti-american" comment?
For conservatives, what is not following the Constitution and Capitalism, is anti-american.
Distribution of wealth is anti-american.
Nationalization of huge industries ( car, health care ) is anti-american.
And so on, and so forth.
That's why we are having this discussion.
As to public school education ( including colleges, public and private) - the majority of faculty there are liberal with the agenda to reshape the new generation in the liberal way, so they grow up believing in socialism, not capitalism.
So, what do you believe in?

[Светлана Гэмм]

if were you, I would not start questioning Maria's education...you can take my words for it...:-)
promote general welfare is not the same as provide, imo...

[Mike]

James Madison addressed the "general welfare" specifically:
"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare,
and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare,
they may take the care of religion into their own hands;
they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish
and pay them out of their public treasury;
they may take into their own hands the education of children,
establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union;
they may assume the provision of the poor;
they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads;
in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation
down to the most minute object of police,
would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power
of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for,
it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature
of the limited Government established by the people of America."

[Mike]

btw, for Maria: the constitution is not established for the people, but as a guideline for the federal government relationship between them and states, and people within the US.

[Mihail]

I do not get the point of this discussion. What is wrong with FOX news? They present the views that have each and every right to exist. The professors in Academia are all liberals? Are you serious?
Liberals and conservatives mixture is necessary for healthy society. Bush Jr. is liberal? How come he ended up with budget deficit?Obama is conservative? How come he spent billions to support financial corporations?
Everything is relative. In state were I live liberals are fighting to change the State Constitution to permit interracial marriages. In larger states the conservatives fighting for more common sense...

[Светлана Гэмм]

***********.youtube.com/watch?v=a4obR5CTm4I&feature=related
here is a documentary about indocrination taking place in public schools...see what you think...this is video 1 out 7 - more on the right...

[Светлана Гэмм]

as far as the purpose of the Constitution, it's both to
1. establish the government and delegate its limited powers
2. protect rights of the citizens (hence, bill of rights)

[Светлана Гэмм]

first of all come down...I personally don't think anyone is more or less American than me or anyone else...some concepts or ideas, however, is not American...like Maria had already explained...
socialism is for sure not American...

[Mike]

Svetlana, this is NOT true, it only guides federal government which laws they are not allowed to make.
In general i notice both you and Maria have the same misconception of the constitution and what it is.

[Светлана Гэмм]

yeah, Михаил, I forgot you are the only one without any misconceptions...:-)
what exactly is not true? did I say it gives rights or protects?...you see the difference?
btw, all watch that videoS about public schools...so many things we don't know about..

[Mike]

the difference is that constitution does not give rights.. it just guides the federal government..
for example:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom ofspeech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably toassemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It's different from granting rights to people or even citizens. But what do i know, i am just reading the constitution as written.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I never said it gives, but protects...
In theUnited States, constitutional rights are derived from the people themselves and are protected primarily by the enumerated amendments to theUS Constitution, known as theBill of Rights. Persons may also have constitutional rights protected by the constitution of a state.

[Олег Сах]

Ira, you know, I love(L) you being my intelligent opponent, you also like me for the same thing. But you took a little step onto the dance floor previously occupied by our own Miah-Wallace-sans-Vincent-Vega - Lina T. "The Great Hall of Twisting Everything." Where did you read that any of the conservative members of this group consider you Anti-American? Maria's quote have dealt with Americans (GOP, Dems, Independnents, серo-буро-малиновые) being against redistribution of wealth and appropriation of Health Care, (86% of all Americans, I have heard?) For that reason the author calls the proponents of ever widening government regulation - Anti American. Because majority of Americans are against it - no matter how they voted in November of 08.

[Mike]

Oleg, ( although i believe the answers are only as good as the question you ask ) so if you disagree with the majority of the population of the country you automatically become anti-american?

[Олег Сах]

Mike, if I am a legislator who is pushing an unpopular law - yes I am. As Oleg Sakhno, private tax payer, I am not.

[Мария]

Mike Rabinovich: excellent and timely quotation from James Madison:
"Were the power
of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for,
it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature
of the limited Government established by the people of America."
Ira, nobody even called you anti-American. You took it upon yourself. :-O
The only reason you think that conservatives are against education, is because your good liberal educators want you to believe so. Apparently they succeeded:-(
If you ever heard of William Buckely Jr, you should know that he is a first class intellectual. Perhaps, one of the most educated people in the modern American history. And he was the father of modern American Conservatism.

[Мария]

Ira, It seems to me that you are confused about where conservatives stand oneducation: they support BETTER education for American children .
Liberals, on the other hand, support MORE EXPENSIVE education.
Liberals always seem to run out of money in public schools: no matter how much they get from the government, it's never enough to produce good results.
Meanwhile, much less expensive charter schools where liberal unions do not rule, do wonders with the students education.
Hm...
But charter school/voucher programss are usually supported by the conservative policy makers. And very much opposed by the liberal ones. So, who is against good education?
Tell me now.

[Мария]

This is very simple : just compare the basic knowledge of public school students ( on average, not in the most affluent counties), and the charter school students. Take Washington DC -the most famous example. The public schools there spent the most per student in US -something like $12-15 k a year. With the worst test scores/graduation rates. Next to those schools is a charter school, where some lucky parent ( all poor, for fair comparison) could put their kids -within a year those students start getting ahead of thir public school peer. The graduation rate is almost 100%. The kids go on with higher education.
Same city, same slums - but in one school emphasis is on childrens educaation ( math, reading), in all others - who know what? But they surely get tons of money from their liberal enablers in the Capitol Hill.

[Светлана Гэмм]

We don't blame everything on the teachers - we know parents have to do their job too - we are just saying give parents a choice...if the public school their children go to doesn't provide the children with good education, the government should not keep them in that school and should provide vouchers for the parents to take the kids to a better school...isn't it an American thing to do?

[Мария]

There is statistics that just came out that charter school definitely outperform public school everything equal. ( parent status, living condition etc).
Teachers union is a very powerful liberal lobby. They are interested in getting as much money from the gov. as possible.
You don't believe that they are pursuing their liberal political agenda? :-D ( I wonder why they donate millions and millions to the Democratic candidates)
BTW, there are good teacher in public schools.
There are also very bad teachers there who are not "fireable" due to the union protection.

[Мария]

********online.wsj.com/article/SB125358513141729871.html
Charter Schools Pass Key Test in Study
By JOHN HECHINGER and IANTHE JEANNE DUGAN NewYork City students who win a lottery to enroll in charter schoolsoutperform those who don't win spots and go on to attend traditionalschools, according to new research to be released Tuesday.
The study, led by Stanford University economics Prof. CarolineHoxby, is likely to fire up the movement to push states and schooldistricts to expand charter schools -- one of the centerpieces ofPresident Barack Obama's education strategy.
Should be interesting for you to read , especially since Obama supports it;-)

[Mike]

Mike, if I am a legislator who is pushing an unpopular law - yes I am.
Oleg, with all due respect, i think this is crazy. The reason we have an elective government is so that the elected officials represent their constituency. If you suggest that elected officials should blindly follow popular opinion you should really re-examine how the government of this country works and how it was intended to work.

[Олег Сах]

Mike, this is theory. The example that Maria used and which got Ira so worked up, was an individual opinion. So was my answer to you. I, out of all people, don't believe in popular opinions. "The conversation with an average voter is the best argument against democracy". You were asking me a hypothetical question, I was answering it hypothetically.
Now, all this nonsense beside. Do conservatives in this group believe that they are more American than Irina D.?????
I'll go first. I don't.

[Mike]

Oleg, i am confused to what you just said..
I thought your entire argument of being un-American hedged on having an un-popular opinion.

[Светлана Гэмм]

it's absolutely un-american to push an unpopular bill...so many legislations have failed because of their unpopularity...the government is all about the will of the people (at least when enacting a legislature)..otherwise, it's more like a dicatorship, and less like a represantative democracy (republic)...

[Mike]

Svetlana, of all the funny things you say this is by far the funniest ;)
I this this should go into a КВН topic (fr) (fr) (fr)

[Олег Сах]

Mike, if I was good at political rhetoric, I would be going to some think tank's monthly meeting today, instead of Restaurant Depot to check Christmas Ham prices. My point was that someone who wants to tax Americans to death and to use that money to fund health care for illegals is doing something essentially Anti-American. In theory. Not Ira D., not you, not Julia Stein, not Alexei. But a person who wants American taxpayers to borrow from China to create a Universal Healthcare that will be available for people who don't pay taxes, don't work here and who will go back to their country after being cured. If I'm still confusing you, I give up.

[Светлана Гэмм]

no wonder it's funny to you, Михаил..:-) I just took a closer look at your pic and realized why you have those wildest ideas about pot and whores - it's because you have a baby face...don't get me wrong - a cute one too ;-) boys fantasies...(H)

[Mike]

Oleg, your point was un-popular = anti-american.
Now you have a new point.. providing coverage to people who pay no taxes - anti-american.
I actually disagree with you on both of those points.. so i guess it makes me anti-american :)

[Светлана Гэмм]

The war in Iraq had about 70% of popularity right before the invasion...
Михаил, I am still waiting for you to nail something...:-)

[Mike]

Wow.. it's so amusing to watch people manufacture so-called "facts", when even a 30 seconds google search can disprove them.
May 2003A Gallup poll made on behalf of CNN and the newspaper USA Todayconcluded that 79% of Americans thought the Iraq War was justified,with or without conclusive evidence of illegal weapons. 19% thoughtweapons were needed to justify the war.[9]

[Лина]

Ira, It seems to me that you are confused about where conservatives stand oneducation: they support BETTER education for American children .
-------------------------------------------------------------------
like teaching creationism in science class alongside or even instead of evolution.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Михаил, bravo...you have excellent google skills..(Y) I am so very proud of you...;-)
btw, spoke to my conservative American friend about drug legalization, he told me he would only be for legalizing stimulants - during the WWII it was very American to be productive, and everyone was on stimulants...:-)
there are tons of things that mean to be American - different for the government and for the citizens...
one would be not expecting the government to take care of your problems...btw, the republican solution to healthcare reform is very American imo - they want to PROMOTE (not provide) general welfare - by enacting certain legislations and regulations..totally different than what dems want to do...

[Лина]

it's absolutely un-american to push an unpopular bill
----------------------------------------------------------------
lots of unpopular things were shoved downpeople's hateful, ignorant throats -like the civil rights act... just because something is unpopular doesn't necessarily
make it un-american, it just reflects the ignorance of the masses.

[Гера Така]

Issomething popular because the media says so?
And the media - of course is unbiased, right?;-)
Or becuase, some polls say so?

... and I thought You, the people, should think for yourself, and make your own opinions, like was pointed out to me by... some participants here.

[Mike]

Gera, i thought that was the point exactly!
Oleg and Svetlana were calling unpopular anti-american, which by itself sounds like an anti-american statement :)

[Светлана Гэмм]

I thought you claimed to have excellent comprehension skills...what was said was that when the government is pushing something that's not supported by the vast majority, then it's un-American...but anyone is free have any opinion they want, but don't expect us or Americans to say that some concepts are American, just because some support Government health-care takeover or other non-sense...it's not - they clearly violate the principles this country was founded on!

[Алексей Пэтк]

Hmm.... if something is unpopular among a person and his/her 5 friends it does not mean that it is "grossly unpopular" among the rest of the Americans. Some people just have difficulty in extrapolations... which they probably missed in school -- because it is a self-serving, elitist and far-from-real-life place....

[Лина]

but don't expect us or Americans to say that some concepts are American,
--------------------------------------------------
us who?the brainwashed otb's who don't have a clue about the principles this country was founded on. no wonder you didn't refer to yourself as an American - you're not and never will be.

[Олег Сах]

1. I think some people here enjoy misunderstanding others.
2. Aleksey, do you know 5 people who support Health care reform in its present shape?

[Лина]

do you think women's suffrage was popular in the US? although after reading your posts, I can see why some wanted to deny women the right to vote.

[Mike]

i don't know 5 people who support the current shape of the reform because i don't know 5 people who know the current shape..
in fact i don't know 1 person who knows it.. there are so many different bills with 1000s of pages each.. and last few hundred pages of every bill are amendments that looks like
"in section 37 paragraph 3 change "given" to "gives" as per section 122c "

[Лина]

lest we forget, abolition of slavery was also quite unpopular in it's day... who amongst us today would call that un-American? well, I know a few of you would...

[Светлана Гэмм]

I can see how some would still want to be slaves of the state by wanting the government to tell them every step of the way and hand out them everything...
for the government to enact something into a law, it has to be both constitutional (slavery was clearly not, nor is the healthcare reform) and popular (supported by the majority)...
supporting limited government is very American, expansion of the already huge federal government with unconstitutional duties is not..

[Sweet]

IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.
IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

[Sweet]

IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.
IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.
<FONT color=blue size=2 face=Arial>

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

[Sweet]

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU:<FONT color=blue size=2 face=Arial>
GET A JOB, A DRIVERS LICENSE, SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, WELFARE, FOOD STAMPS, CREDIT CARDS, SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE, FREE EDUCATION, FREE HEALTH CARE, A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON AND IN MANY INSTANCES YOU CAN VOTE

[Лина]

for the government to enact something into a law, it has to be both constitutional (slavery was clearly not
---------------------------------------------------------------------
you mean now it's clearly not... back then it obviously wasn't so clear

[Светлана Гэмм]

some may accuse me of the ESL teacher brutality now, BUT I have to admit - have seen similiar arrogance from other daycare "educators" preaching age-appropriate behavior...
actually if someone loved education so much, there are so many degrees you can get, so you don't have to rely on government to provide you with jobs and healthcare...
that's the Amercan way!! (Y)

[Mike]

Slavery was totally constitutional, in fact some of our founding fathers were slave owners themselves and slave-ownership was codified into law.

[Светлана Гэмм]

now it's the perfect time to remind that McCain's great-grandpa owned Obama's grandpa..them republican FOX news watchers 8oI

[Mike]

Svetlana, please READ the constitution.. for some reason i have an impression you never really read it.. at least based on the statements that you make.
BTW, the only part of healthcare reform of questionable constitutionality is forcing people to buy health insurance, but even that can be argued either way and it will most likely be for the supreme court to decide.

[Лина]

exactly, slaves were considered chattel- no different from livestock or cattle... what was so unconstitutional about owning sheeps or horses?

[Лина]

now it's the perfect time to remind that McCain's great-grandpa owned Obama's grandpa
---------------------------------------------------------
his white great-grandpa?

[Светлана Гэмм]

I live in a republican district, so even my public school is ok...I teach my own kids reading and math, hisotry, religion - they are way ahead of their peers...FYI, the TV is off - I am reading a book for a change..and you?
I RE-read the Constitution just yeasterday...which part that I said, Михаил, confused you AGAIN?

[Светлана Гэмм]

вот че-то вспомнилось, не совсем в тему, хотя с вашими постами тоже не соскучишься...:-D
"Миша... Миша.. ... Пошевелив пальцами ног, Степа догадался, что лежит в носках, трясущейся рукою провел по бедру, чтобы определить, в брюках он или нет, и не определил. *...:-O
M.Булгаков

[Mike]

Svetlana, maybe it's time for you to read it again.. before you make statements about slavery being "totally unconstitutional" at the time when it was written..

[Светлана Хаву]

now it's the perfect time to remind that McCain's great-grandpa owned Obama's grandpa

Can we clarify this statement please? I thought his father was just studing in USA?

[Алексей Пэтк]

He-he.... you know, drinking alcohol WAS unconstitutional at some point. Slavery was very much constitutional -- slaves were considered livestock. "It's our (American) way of life" -- was argued in the South right before Civil War.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I don't think you nailed it again :-) few posts below you ridiculed the Constitution because it allowed for slavery (which is an ownership of people), and now you are sending me to read it again as some kinda sacred document in your opinion (dt) maybe I am not the one confused? *-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

enough wasting my time here
how many times will you say this? I thought you had decided to stop long time ago...:-)

[Mike]

Sveltana, I "ridiculed" it???
WTF, do you know the meaning of the word??
Stating a well-documented fact does not equal ridicule, even in the most conservative district..
Now, in order to KNOW that fact you should in fact read that said document.

[Лина]

so now you're saying that the constitution is not a sacred document and just because something is notmentioned in it, doesn't mean it's un-American?

[Светлана Гэмм]

Can we clarify this statement please? I thought his father was just studing in USA?
Света, :-D at one point they didn't have student visas, so McCain's great grandpa had to pay darn good money for Obama's grandpa to be here...it was WAAAAAY before pell grant was introduced..
:-D :-D :-D

[Светлана Гэмм]

WTF, do you know the meaning of the word??
FTW, if you need to know the meaning, we have a board certified language specialist here...
Me, just an science denying southern (ch)

[Mike]

science denying southern
lool.. yeah.. up north we just call them pigfuckers ;-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

what a coincidence...I was convinced that's what they do up north (H) recreationally, of course..

[Лина]

is that what you used to do when you lived in new york? no wonder you moved down south - closer to your own kind

[Светлана Хаву]

so McCain's great grandpa had to pay darn good money for Obama's grandpa to be here...it was WAAAAAY before pell grant was introduced..

Obamas paternal grandpa had never been or lived in USA.

[Светлана Гэмм]

oh, actually it was Obama's family who owned slaves, maybe even Michelle's great great grandpa..
According to the research, one of Obama's great-great-great-great grandfathers, George Washington Overall, owned two slaves who were recorded in the 1850 census in Nelson County, Ky. The same records show that one of Obama's great-great-great-great-great-grandmothers, Mary Duvall, also owned two slaves.
An Obama spokesman did not dispute the information and said that the senator's ancestors "are representative of America."
but who didn't own slaves at that time?...it was just as popular as smoking pot now ;-) ...something tells me Mихаил would have owned bunch of them and lived in the south where they used them for sex...;-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

I thought his mothers side waswhite.
wow! this statement is racist..8oI
:-) (v)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Света, no reason...just when color is being brought up into a conversation, it's a popular thing to say...:-) (v) just following the fashion...

[Mike]

then i could be just like out founding fathers.. who owned slaves and smoked cannabis :)

[Светлана Гэмм]

You are the founder...didn't you found something when you are 18? ;-)
but seriously...why I think slavery was unconstitutional to start with is because considering slaves a livestock is a spin...just like considering unborn babies a bunch of cells...both are human beings clearly..

[Лина]

both are clearly human beings? would most people be able to distinguish a human embryo from that of a dolphin or a monkey?

[Лина]

why I think slavery was unconstitutional to start with is because considering slaves a livestock is a spin
-------------------------------------------------------------------
why do you think its a spin? just like you think homosexuals are going against nature, many believed that blacks were sub-human, and as such not entitled to the same rights as whites.

[TATYANA]

start with --romans ----- you all !!!!! why start it all ;-) you all sinking --all liberals smoke --drinking ..party ... come on !!! and why all of you come from the CCCP --- and become demokrats -- coservative (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) yes liberals for ligal marihyana so????

[TATYANA]

Marks --jew
Angels-jew
Lenin - jew
komunety --kommunizm -- why ..strart??
liberals and conservatives been at war all the time --from the TRAIN CESAR !!!!!!!!107 a.d till today (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md)

[TATYANA]

POMPEI IMPER--OFF ROME GET KILL BY THE "KOMUNETY"............ IN 87 A.D !!! START IT ALL

[Мария]

So, those who do not believe that majority of public schools indoctrinate children: tell me, how many teachers at your kids/your school voted for Obama?
In my school -it's 100%. The teachers live and breathe Obama and all existing liberal causes.
The same goes for probably 99% of the rest of the schools in where I live ( with at least 99% of teachers being flaming liberals).
So, when your child is exposed to very one- sided point of view, there is no room for pluralism.
Ira, you are a supporter of pluralism of opinion: how did it happen, that the pluralism of ideology is missing in lots and lots of American schools?

[Khramaya]

i really don't care who my kids chemistry teachers voted for.
I want them to teach chemistry well.
History is a different issue, of course.
But that's why we have family. And family either indoctrinates or fosters an atmosphere of healthy debate.
I our household we have debated like you wouldn't believe....
And they are welcome.

[Мария]

It works for the families who are involved with the kids and show them both sides of the coin.
I don't care who the chemistry teacher voted for as long as he keep his subject non-partisan.
Unfortunately, even science teachers who are flaming liberals can not resist imposing their liberal views on kids.
History and literature is a very important subject because that is where the critical thinking forms. There is a movement to revise history for public school textbooks. The selection of reading material also is very influenced by the liberal mindset of the selecTORS.

[Мария]

Jesus was a liberal, just like the conservatives are in the true sense of the word. (v)

[Mihail]

was a liberal, just like the conservatives are in the true sense of the word
(Y)(Y)(Y)

[TATYANA]

RELIGIN + POLITIKS === AAAAAA ONLY IN AMERICA !!!!(md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md)

[Рита С]

Jesus Christ was a carpenter.... not a rabbi.... (unless he held two jobs)... He had a split personality. As a carpenter he was definitely a democrat, not sure about liberal.....as a Jewish rabbi he must have been very conservative....:-D:-D:-D

[Гера Така]

He wa a rabbi, (carpenter was his father) if only because he had students.

Carpenters do not have students.

And he was not too conservative... because he established new ways...;-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Боже! какой бред...
it's so much simplier...
1. the consipracy definitely exists, but it's on the higher level - the Department of Education, government bureaucrats, school administrators, etc..
2. the teachers are partisan because they constantly hear democrats are good, they want to spend more money on schools, protect your union jobs, don't want to put pressure on you and your performance, etc...so who do they "care" about, the students or their own benefits?

[Рита С]

I have to confess that it is very hard for me as a teacher of diverse population to stay firm on some my political views.... (v)

[Алексей Пэт]

2. theteachers are partisan because they constantly hear democrats are good,they want to spend more money on schools, protect your union jobs,don't want to put pressure on you and your performance, etc...so who dothey "care" about, the students or their own benefits?
Wow! This is stupid.

[Светлана Гэмм]

interesting fact about the education Americans receive in public aschools and Ivy League schools..
NewYork,May 29, 2002 ? Almost two-thirds of Americans think Karl Marx?smaxim,?From each according to his ability, to each according to hisneeds? wasor could have been written by the framers and included intheConstitution, according to a nationwide survey commissioned by ColumbiaLaw School.

[Алексей Пэтк]

wow! that's a great analysis...
This is exactly as much analysis as it deserves.

[Олег Сах]

I'd like to deviate from current thread, if you don't mind. We can wait for voices of our Conservative teachers to be heard, there is at least three of them in this group.
Julia Stein have made a following point many times: immigrants from FSU who call themselves Conservative are hypocrites. For reaping social benefits (SSI, Medicaid, Medicare) by elderly who did not contribute to this country. I just thought of something.
I, as a conservative am against unfair social programs: free dwellings for healthy unemployed adults, welfare for the same group, furniture allowances, prom dress allowances, cell phone allowances (they all exist in NYC). (To be continued)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Alexey, you are supporting my viewson who teach in our schools with your deep thoughts..

are you telling me people don't vote with their bottom line, the teachers' unions are not partisan? what's your theory on teachers being liberal?

or you are subscribing to the nut theory that unless you are a liberal you don't care for people, don't do your job well and are basically a racist?
I work with a diverse population, and treat everyone as people and the same...my political views have nothing to do with what I do..
Oh, I also find it amusing how the biggest defenders of public schools send their kids to private..:-)they probably don't like diversity for their kids?

[Олег Сах]

Continued...
Of course, giving free medical insurance, free or very inexpensive living arrangements, food stamps, free shoes, glasses, air conditioners, etc. to people who have never contributed to US, (and never will) may seem as unfair. But is it?
Take an average couple of this sort. They came here when they were well in their 70's. Right?
They have grown kids, in their 40's - early 50's and grandchildren, in late teens or early 20's. Their children (two on the average) go to work and work for 20 -25 years each, paying SSI, taxes, creating personal wealth, paying property taxes, etc...These people were not educated here, they did not use any social resources of this country prior to their arrival and will not use any after their retirement. Same for grandchildren. Isn't it only fair that those elderly who were robbed off their pensions by Mother Russia will receive a little portion of the benefits that their children and grandchildren earned but never used?

[Олег Сах]

Ira, I used immigrants from FSU as an example only because:
a) Their cases are familiar to me.
b) They are being accused of hypocrisy when turning Conservative.
Don't know much about Mexican families. I do know that statistically immigrants from FSU contribute more in taxes then Dominicans, let's say. Just a cold case of numbers speaking for themselves. No politics. Also, if an American who was born here does not see the difference between someone who works as a structural engineer and pays over 100K in taxes per household per year, and someone who works in grocery while his common law wife gets WIC checks for their 7 children, then that American is a damn fool.

[TATYANA]

ух какие тут все --по англиски усе !!! да есе все политикли -корект !!! че вы тут все рассписуетес...в парламент даваите !!! деретесь кто кто !!!?? либерал и все --консерватив и все!!! переписали все тыт с интернета -- а как такового мнения нет не у одного !!!! точно как политики --"пи@@дят " без толку как вы .....

[Светлана Хаву]

Ira, if you go to any european country and just start living there without any permission to live and work , would you get social benefits?

[TATYANA]

ааа так че все хотят бенефит.... ха самие классние бенефиту --либерали дают !!!!:-P :-P :-P :-P

[Олег Сах]

Mike, hard decision, she's not a troll. She is one of original members of this group, named Tatiana Merkush. She is also known as infamous "Сонька" - мечта Дана and a constant KVN character.
Голубушка, как говорил Жеглов твоей другой alter ego - Маньке Облигации, " - Что же ты мне парня портишь?"

[TATYANA]

ага !!! я с какой -- с канады -- тут эти либиралы--- были долго!!! ,,с 1989 -2006 -- за то хот "марихуану" разрешили --курить !!
а то что все друг на друга нападают --- тут все свободние выбрать свою партию... а если ты не такой как все ми тебя завалим --обосрем -- делаы все как мы ...точно совкобые принцепы !!!8oI

[Светлана Гэмм]

1. there is a lot of Jews in Cali who are not conservatives or republicans, but very liberal (I am in one of those groups :-))

2. the question with the Russian Jews receiving benefits has been puzzling someone for a while..:-)I personally think there were no benefits,the immigrants fromt he former SU would not be starving, nor their parents..they would find waysto support each other, just like lots of them did in the 70s...it's all about mentality that exists in a lot of those liberal areas..imo..

[TATYANA]

yh --oleg --pamyat y tebya --- klass!! daje jeni nakazi navernoe ne zabivaesh --kypi --poroshok --- takoy v golubenkoy ypokovochke !! tochno privezesh takoy kakoy skazala !!! klass pamyat kak y slona!!!! yvajau !!(Y) (Y) (Y)

[Олег Сах]

So, are you suggesting that the services should be applied based onnationality of the recipients? Just like that? A Jew - will get them, aMexican - no way no how?
Ira, what is it? Midterm Elections are getting closer, we need to take off the kid's gloves? Have I said that? I just pointed out to Julia Stein that immigrants from FSU are not being hypocritical while supporting conservative causes, because they have paid their dues.

[TATYANA]

короче кричите --не кричите --все Америки больше нет какой она была!!! наступает новый --сосиализм нациализация банков -- и все пипетс!! и к какой вы партии пренадлижуте -- "шишкам" все равно !!! кто мы все??? ИМИГРАНТЫ -- ВСЕ СИДИ И МОЛЧИ !!! ТОЛьКО ТУТ МОЖНО --О Я ТАКОЙ И СЯКОЙ !!!

[Светлана Хаву]

benfits are not given to jews, they are given to any legaly admitted residents. Mexicans who are legaly in this country get the same benefits as any nationality.

[Олег Сах]

Ira, my dearest!!! I think that the law should be blind. Even if statistics tell otherwise. The cases that we are discussing here are for "entertainment purposes" only. If a Mexican immigrant who owns 5 bodegas decides to support tough border control, be it. I will not call him a hypocrite. If this country had implemented any normal immigration system we would have nothing to discuss. Just like a 100 years ago every immigrant was just an immigrant, not a political pawn. Was there a difference between Irish immigrant or let's say Swiss? Sure there was. Is there a difference between their descendants? I don't think so. Spanish speaking immigrants have been formed into a powerful "Latino" group, that needs funds, funds, funds, funds. For that reason they are being held down, made into second class citizens, who are being held in schools that teach in Spanish (whatever that program is called). Do we have colleges teaching in Spanish? Bingo.

[Рита С]

Ira: I am am elementary and spec. ed teacher and soon to bea K-12 ESOL teacher, not a college professor andI love my job. But I am tired of balancing between rulesand regulations that come from the New York State and real life in the classroom, too much "political correctness" when talking to the parents who blame school for everything.... without even making the slightest effort to support their own children..... I was taught by my democratic professors (one of them wouldn't start her class without saying "I hate Republicans") that parents should not be held accountable for their children's academic achievements and you know what kind of population we are talking about here.... But I can't ignore what I see..... Please, don't ask me for the details... That is why I said that I lost my mind deciding who's right and who's wrong.... (F)

[Олег Сах]

So, don't read between the lines. And don't project what other bad, mean, bloodsucking Republicans say on me. I used an example of two generations of productive people paying their fair share for the benefits received by their elderly, be they Chinese, Jewish, Mexican, or Creplachi. (from Creplachistan). Julia Stein had raised that question in Nedvigina's group lately and Lina added her favorite "battered wife syndrome theory" . I refuse to participate in that group while Vishnevetskiy is a memeber, but I read it from time to time. How you construed that I think that Jews should receive more benefits than Mexicans from it, I don't know.

[Алексей Пэтк]

I work with a diverse population, and treat everyone as people and thesame...my political views have nothing to do with what I do..
After what you said before, I doubt that.

[Светлана Гэмм]

quit addressing my posts then...your comprehension of what I am saying needs much improvement...

[Khramaya]

I actually think most liberals and conservatives want the same basic things in life....
they just get hung up on certain topics....

[Олег Сах]

Although Ira is gone I just wanted to add that Julia Stein have mentioned the hypocrisy of Russian sparking conservatives in this group. Many times. Mentioning her Brooklyn relatives.

[Алексей Пэтк]

quit addressing my posts then...your comprehension of what I am saying needs much improvement...
Deal. You are the only one who complains about my comprehension. Think about that.

[Светлана Гэмм]

please...I am not one of your students...I've been out of school for 11 year this december...don't tell me what to think about...:-)(v)(F)

[Khramaya]

as far as hypocrisy - I never stated that it is in any way limited to any particular group. NOBODY if completely free of hypocrisy.
Some have little, some live it. But hypocrisy I find maddening in hard-core conservatives living on pensions although they never worked in this country is especially hard to explain, it's just a bizarre thing for me.....

[TATYANA]

Constitution of the United States of America
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ”
The Preamble does not grant any particular authority to the federal government and it does not prohibit any particular authority. It establishes the fact that the federal government has no authority outside of what follows the preamble, as amended. "We the people", is one of the most-quoted sections of the Constitution. It was thought by the Federalists during this time that there was no need for a bill of rights as they thought that the preamble explained the people's rights.
ТАК КАКАЯ РАЗНИЦА--МЕЖДY ЕВРЕЕМ И МЕКСИКАНСЕМ??

[Тревор Накм]

Thank God someone is going to draw the line in the sand...whether you are right or left, there should be no "I'm independent" You are either Conservative or you are not!

[Олег Сах]

Мне выражение "independent" напоминает - "немного беременная". Либо туда - либо сюда. Мне республиканская партия на сегодняшний момент абсолютно не импонирует, но это потому что призыв хреновый.

[Mike]

lol, everyone loves to slam the independents :)
so basically if you reject both corrupt parties that are in power in this country and don't buy the ridiculous propaganda from both sides you are somehow "немного беременный"?

[Mike]

so i guess at this particular juncture of my life i hate the typical conservatives more.. so would that make me a liberal? :)

[Алексей Пэтк]

Мне выражение "independent" напоминает - "немного беременная".
Hmmm... maybe "I'm a little bit country, I'm a little bit rock-n-roll" is more suitable here?

[Светлана Гэмм]

Михаил, а если мы тебе дадим большой-прибольшой мешок какапли и индивидуальную прости-господи, чистенькую-проверенную ;-)...will you love us then? pleeeeeeeeeeze...:-(

:-D(K)(md)

[Mike]

For me to "like" the conservatives they need to stay away from my personal business..
Btw, since when is it just conservative/liberals? what happened to everyone else? Like libertarians?

[Светлана Гэмм]

For me to "like" the conservatives they need to stay away from my personal business..

so, low taxes, strong security, school vouchers, канапля, прости-господи своя!...all these ain't enough?

по-моему ты ломаешься? будешь сильно губу раскатывать, мы по-дешевле найдем...;-)

[Mike]

All schools of libertarianism support strong personal rights to lifeand liberty, though some disagree on the subject of private property.[8] The most commonly known formulation of libertarianism supports free market capitalism[8] by advocating a right to private property, including property in the means of production,[9] minimal government regulation of that property, minimal taxation, and rejection of the welfare state, all within the context of the rule of law
that would be me.. Ron Paul for the president!!

[Светлана Гэмм]

sorry to disappoint you...he is a liberitarian, but socially you would not call him that - he is socially what he say conservative (pro-life, traditional marriage, etc), but he is for state rights...

[Светлана Гэмм]

most of his views are fine...I share most of them...did you check out his foreign policy views? of isolationism...

and for some strange reasons, this past primary election he was supposed by the no-nazis...very strange..(tr)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, good news ;-)

********online.wsj.com/article/SB125962987284870595.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStor ies

[Khramaya]

what's wrong with Independent? Can't we chose on platforms, on issues? Do you always vote along party lines? - this is crazy....
Don't we look at personal record of those we elect? I voted many times for Reps, and many times for Dems. Locally a number of Reps I know are trustworthy, they have a record of doing healthy things for the community, so why do I have for others- just because of their label? This would be just herd mentality.

[Олег Сах]

Julia, no offense to you personally, but I always found it very convenient that people like to have fiscally responsible Republicans running their town, city even state, but elect Democratic presidents and senators. City of New York votes 80% to 90% democratic in presidential elections but just prolonged to 20 (!) years the era in which Republicans have been elected. Bloomber have switched to Independent before the last election but it does not cancel 4 straight elections in which a Republican was elected a mayor. Look at the bluest states' recent governors - California - Arnie, Massachusetts - Romney, New York - Pataki.

[Khramaya]

OK, where is inconsistency? if you have a lousy democrat, it doesn't make him good, and vice versa, just because of party name in front of his name. Isn't this a good thing? Elect people on merit? Where did I ever say I personally will never vote for a good Rep candidate for higher office? I hated Bush JR and his whole administration, but there were excellent Rep presidents. I think of myself as sophisticated enough not to стричь всех под одну гребенку.

[Олег Сах]

Julia, as I said, nothing personal, I'm not even talking about you here, but why super blue states elect GOP governors and Dem. presidents?

[Мария]

Oleg, my theory for that phenomenon is that state elections are covered by state and local press to a bigger extent than by national liberal press. People get heavier assault by the biased national press during presidential elections.
Just a thought...
BTW, California Governator got elected on his fame, not on his party affiliation.

[Мария]

Imagine this type of scenario just for a second. Suppose you're ateacher and a Hispanic kid is there whose family is illegal. What areyou going to do? Suppose you're a doctor and you have an obese patienton welfare who wants to lose weight. What are you going to do? Ineither case are you going to despise them and tell them that they'reun-American and cause the problems for this country and if not for themthis country would have been much better off, -or help themnonetheless?
Strange question. If the patient is seeking your help, as a doctor you must help him/her. And so they do... And the illegals drain the system...
Still do not get the question...

[Мария]

ThoughtI see a better outcome for the illegal kid who is attending Americanschool than for an illigal alien adult patient: a conservative teacher can instill in this kid love forAmerica, love for rule of law, appreciation for personalresponsibility, hard work, accountability, desire to strive forachievement. Such a teacher can shape this child into a responsible adult, who mostlikely won't become obese slob on welfare. (v)

[Алексей Пэтк]

I think that if that kid is born in the US, he/she is American and should have all the benefits and responsibilities that any American has. If the kid is not a US citizen, he/she should either be deported (after a court order) or issued a visa, depending on individual circumstances. There is nothing wrong with education of non-US citizens, there are plenty of exchange programs run by schools and universities.
If the kid is American, but his/her parents are illigal immigrants, they should be deported.

[Mike]

Svetlana, despite what you may want to believe legalizing soft drugs is not a personal issue for me, but a personal liberty issue in general.
I would say legalizing poker would be a personal issue for me.

[Светлана Гэмм]

listen, you can't agree with someone 100% all the time..
are you saying poker is illegal? and why?

[Mike]

I have no clue WHY it's illegal, but it is.. outside of the casinos in NV and indian reservations.
It's also illegal to play it on-line ( thank to former president Bush ).
They view is as "gambling", which is super-retarded..

[Светлана Гэмм]

yeah, it's crazy...at least it should be left up to the states...
they claimed it was impossible to regulate it..dunno...

[Mike]

on-line gambling is a part of interstate commerce, so they can/should regulate it.
banning it is just stupid. but we are talk about our government - they are not the brightest people in general.

[Mike]

here is the scoop:
On October 13, 2006, President Bush officially signed into law the Safe Port Act, a bill aimed at enhancing security at U.S. ports.[8] Attached to the Safe Port Act was a provision known as the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act(UIGEA). According to the UIGEA, "unlawful internet gambling" means toplace, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by meansof the internet where such bet is unlawful under any law in the Statein which the bet is initiated, received, or otherwise made. Thus, theUIGEA prohibits online gambling sites from performing transactions withAmerican financial institutions.
I this the current state of things is that a bunch of Dem senators are getting ready a bill to overturn UIGEA and Obama is supportive of it.

[Лина]

These people were not educated here, they did not use any social resources of this country prior to their arrival and will not use any after their retirement. Same for grandchildren. Isn't it only fair that those elderly who were robbed off their pensions by Mother Russia will receive a little portion of the benefits that their children and grandchildren earned but never used?
-----------------------------------------------------
never used? are you saying their children and grandchildren will never attend any public schools, will not reveive any financial aid, and will not collect medicare or social security benefits - since their share has already been paid out to their parents/grandparents?

[Лина]

Bloomber have switched to Independent before the last election but it does not cancel 4 straight elections in which a Republican was elected a mayor
----------------------------------------------------------------
and prior to running for office, he was a lifelong democrat

[Олег Сах]

Lina, the amount of income taxes, sales taxes, commuter taxes, property taxes, etc. that these people will pay to the state will be far greater than any amount that they will dip in to.

[Лина]

just because they're not "dipping into" the taxes paid, doesn't mean they're not directly benefiting from them... taxes cover more than just ssi payments, medicaid, and foodstamps. why should theybe entitled toa greater tax benefit than any other tax payer?

[Олег Сах]

why should theybe entitled toa greater tax benefit than any other tax payer?
Did they start using new "special" ink in NY Times? All of you libs are getting stranger by day. Did I say anything about greater tax benefits? If you don't know what I am talking about, then don't cut'n'paste anything that you want to argue with.

[Лина]

Did I say anything about greater tax benefits? If you don't know what I am talking about, then don't cut'n'paste anything that you want to argue with.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I know exactly what you're talking about... if you and Joe the Americanpay the exact same amount of taxes over your lifetimes, but only your parents received public aid (hypothetically) - which one of you gets a bigger bang for their buck?
I'm not even mentioning the taxpayer subsidized pension... although that too seems rather hypocritical.

[Олег Сах]

My parents have worked for 18 years each. They get pensions that they earned. They get medical coverage from the companies that they worked for. Their parents were not around to come with us. Our family is not even an example. I was relating to Julia's comments about hypocrisy of FSU immigrants becoming conservative while sucking a big government tit from the other side.

[Mike]

what is the argument?
does someone here argue that we should not have a social safety net for people of retirement age?

[Олег Сах]

Mike, read my two posts starting with the one posted @ Вчера 22:38, currently on page 9. There is no argument just my reason why FSU immigrants have every right to have freedom of political stand.

[Лина]

Oleg, that's why I said hypothetically, since I'm not familiar with your family's situation...

[Лина]

btw, some african americans have practically the same argument - they feel they're entitled to various public benefits, and even reparations,because their ancestors helped build this contry without being adequately compensated, not to mention, raped, tortured, and killed... it would appear that they and the conservatives from the FSU have a great deal in common - a strong sense of entitlement.

[Mike]

Oleg, is any of this liberal/conservative issue? Again, my question is again, does anyone argue against basic social benefits to people of retirement age?

[Олег Сах]

This is why you are one & only champion of The Great Twist Contest. Mia Wallace нервно курит в углу. (md) (md) (md) (md) Надо же было такое придумать. (md) (md) (md) (md)

[Олег Сах]

My previous message was to Lina. Mike, any topic has ability to deviate from its name, this one became about teachers recently, for example. I am not talking about ANY social issues, just don't call me a hypocrite because my fellow immigrant's grandma received Medicare and I dare to call myself a Conservative.

[Лина]

I dont see any great twist - it's all rather straightforward... conservatives from the FSU are against any form of public assistance, except when it comes to their own relatives (and even themselves). the hypocrisy should be rather obvious to most.

[Светлана Гэмм]

ok, searched some more, and the reason for banning it (poker) on-line was the money laundering problem that goes with it...
the SAFE PORT Act was a continuation of the Wire Act (2020) which didn't ban on-line poker initially...I guess they viewed it as a national security measure..
btw, it's banned in a lot of other countries too..for some reason..

[Салмаксова]

The only downside to talking out of your ass is that you can wake up your tampon.

And the greatest hypocrisy? Talking to someone's ass to try to talk sense into it.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Oleg, my theory for that phenomenon is that state elections are coveredby state and local press to a bigger extent than by national liberalpress. People get heavier assault by the biased national press duringpresidential elections.
and I also have a different take on this kind of phenomena..it all depends on the state population too...like it was explained to me by someone from SD, where a large portion of population is of German dissent, and Germans have a strong sense of socialism...so they vote democrat for Senate/House (because they love farm subsidies, and republican for President (because they favor strong national security)..

[Mike]

Svetlana, the money laundering problem is BECAUSE it's illegal :)
If it was legal and regulated the problem would go away, as all the transaction would become reportable and auditable.
The same way abortion was a much bigger problem when it was illegal - a lot more death, complications, crime around it, etc.

[Светлана Гэмм]

here..that was the claim...how could launder money if it's illegal? don't you have to do it through a legal venue?
********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gambling
In March 2003, Deputy Assistant Attorney General John G. Malcolmtestified before the Senate Banking Committee regarding the specialproblems presented by online gambling.[11] A major concern of the United States Department of Justice is online money laundering.The anonymous nature of the Internet and the use of encryption make itespecially difficult to trace online money laundering transactions.

[Mike]

Again, it's anonymous BECAUSE it's illegal.
If legal US entities were able to do that they would make them collect SSNs for example.. like they do with on-line banking.
Once something is legal it cane be regulated and taxes.
When it's illegal you have no idea what's going on.. and people still use on-line poker sites.. but you just created 2 million criminals.

[Mike]

Oleg, i am still not sure what the argument is..
would anyone want to deny any legal immigrant old person basic social benefits? Any any modern ( even uber-conservatives ) against any social welfare?

[Салмаксова]

Yeah, Oleg, why don't drop everything you're doing and explain in great detail to increasingly cranky Mike what the argument WAS and reiterate what he or she saidin the last 94 posts AND how what you meant to say was misinterpreted and misunderstood and now you have to explain yourself ALL OVER AGAIN to interlocutors whose greatest arguments begin with "I still don't understand how you..."

[Светлана Гэмм]

1. no, I don't know of any conservative, prominent or otherwise, whowould want to deny safety nets for elderly LEGAL immigrants...I thinkBrighton supports republicans because of the national security concerns :-)
2. I am not saying banning is the way to go and didn't create ownproblems...I was just showing that back in 2003, when on-line poker wasstill legal, because it was difficult for them to monitor internetactivities and people who participated, and it involved a lot of cash flow, they argued it was hardto monitor and banned it..

[Mike]

Ol'ga, lol..
i believe the point some people were trying to make was:
"how can ex USSR people be conservative when their grandparents are getting social benefits"
I believe instead of arguing how much their children contribute the appropriate response is:
"conservatives support social benefits to older retired citizens and legal aliens"

[Лина]

I'm sure there are some... but what about those that complain about the evils of labor unions (and I don't entirely disagree), and accuse liberals of primarily holding public sector jobs and not knowing anything about competing in the real market, while they themselves reap the benefits of government guaranteed, taxpayer subsidized teacher pensions.

[Светлана Гэмм]

:-D
I had a similiar reaction...no, more like |-( ...but I was patiently waiting for someone to respond..:-)

[Мария]

********online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574402591116901498.html
Did anybody read this article by Norman Podhoretz?

Why Jew are liberals?
It's an interesting perspective...
All the conservative jews here ( on Ondnoklassniki) is the anomaly to the American society, which is actually an anomaly if you consider the principles of conservatism.

[Лина]

the author is obviously ignorant of Jewish history...
***********.dissentmagazine.org/online.php?id=304

[Лина]

"What needs to be stressed here is the extent to which the exile communities were—because they had to be—little welfare states or welfare societies, whose members, for all their quarrels, were deeply committed to one another. The range of communal provision was very wide (though different in different times and places). It included distributions of food and clothing, care for orphans and widows, dowries, hostels for travelers, ransom for captives (a major claim on communal funds over many centuries), public physicians and midwives, and, perhaps above all, schools. In the l430s, a synod of Spanish rabbis proposed the creation of something close to a full-scale compulsory public school system. What justice meant to those rabbis is perhaps best revealed here, concretely, in their proposal to transfer funds from rich to poor school districts, an issue that continues to be argued about today"

[Лина]

" But then the newly emancipated Jews discovered that they could remain free only in a state where emancipation was general; they could only make their way in a society where careers are open to talents, discrimination is barred, private life and personal choice are protected, and religion is not “established.” In other words, Jews were only able to remain free and make their way in a liberal state and a liberal society. Otherwise, they would be emancipated from orthodoxy only to be victimized by anti-Semitism, which must often have seemed to be the orthodoxy of the gentiles. Jews are liberals, then, from self-interest, but to say this is not to denigrate our commitment. Self-interest is a powerful root from which all sorts of idealisms can grow."

[Салмаксова]

There is no logic in Jew reasoning. Anyone who is color AND race blind knows that.

And if Oleg decides to delve deeper into this dynamic, meaningful, and beneficial discussion he will disappoint those whose opinions he actually values.

And I used my ass & tampon joke today in reference to my principal. People LOVED it. My Jew humoy woyks!!!

[Олег Сах]

Well, I already typed this, by the time Olga posted, so as my last communique concerning the topic:
a) I was talking about immigrants from former FSU, calling this entire group "Jews", just like Ira is doing, is kind of strange. Especially given diversity of this particular group where we are now, starting with Ms. Savchenko herself and ending with Murat, for example.
b) I have never mentioned any dislike for social programs. But who needs to read my posts, when you can "read between the lines"?
c) I stated that working, tax-paying, younger generations of those elderly have returned the money spent on their parents back to USA, in forms of various contributions: taxes, jobs created, personal wealth acquired. Very simple formula, ты мне, я тебе.

[Олег Сах]

d) African Americans' case, when people who are 12 generations removed are feeling entitled for retributions for the pain and suffering of their distant predecessors is so far from my case that I don't even want to honor it with explanation. Just think, simple case, "you gave me $, I gave you $ back", and pseudo-historical mumbo-jumbo of "historical debt" which could be echoed by Russians vs Mongols, Jews vs Egyptians, Gypsies vs The World, etc...

[Славик Саж]

Sometimes I think that famous Гаврила is much closer to Сахно family then just an employee.

[Славик Саж]

Nope Ira, I am still here, just way to busy at work
But thanks for noticing
;-) (v)

[Мария]

In the end, perseverance, the ability to absorb defeat withoutfalling into defeatism, is the key to Palin’s character. It’s whatmakes her run in both senses of the word and it is no accident that thephysical act of running is throughout the book the metaphor for joy andreal life. Her handlers in the McCain campaign wouldn’t let her run (amistake, I think, even at the level of photo-op), no doubt because theyfeared another opportunity to go “off script,” to “go rogue.”
But run she does (and falls, but so what?), and when it is all overand she has lost the vice presidency and resigned the governorship, shegoes on a long run and rehearses in her mind the eventful year she haschronicled. And as she runs, she achieves equilibrium and hope: “We’vebeen through amazing days, and really, there wasn’t one thing tocomplain about. I feel such freedom, such hope, such thankfulness forour country, a place where nothing is hopeless.”