Let's talk about religion - no insults, no flood, no personal attacks, please... ...

[Khramaya]

Let's talk about religion - no insults, no flood, no personal attacks, please... Can we do it?

So, this stems from one of the previews topics...
Oleg raised a very legitimate question -how can one with good science education be religious?
I say - maybe if one is Buddhist... since there is no Supernatural entities in Buddhism, and it is not a hierarchical, but a "circular" religion-philosophy - All is One. It does not clash with our constructs of the Universe as we understand it today. There is no contradiction, that's why so many neuroscientists, physicists, physicians are Buddhists.
So, let's continue....

[Иоффе]

i guess that symbiosis of science and religion is very possible.Let's take a human body: we have one head, a pair of eyes/ears/arms/legs....we know the functions of all the organs, and we even can treat some of the conditions in this organs....but...
why are we like that? how amazing that uniting 2 microscopic half genomes (1/2 from female, 1/2 from male) the human being occur...with all the above mentioned organs, brain, abstract thinking, etc...There is a huge leap between a monkey and a human
And maybe we're creatures of G-d. Besides, there are so unexplainable things (talking medicine as the closest topic for me to dicsuss) despite all the knowledge we have...

[Лина]

actually, I believe his question was: how can one simultaneously believe in science and God. Since God is not the same thing as religion, and may or may nothave anything to do with religion, I don't necessarilysee the two as being mutually exclusive.

[Иоффе]

I never forget one of my patient when i was in my first year of residency (internship). It was an ICU, a 87 year old jewish orthodox man was dying on a breathing machine from a very severe pneumonia. His children (he had like 10), and their spouses and their kids were praying 24/7 at his bedside. We totally gave up and supported his life functions only. And one night, i don't know how it happened, that dying man pulled out the tube and....started to feel better, and better, and...miracle happened...he walked out of ICU ...HOME!!!!!!!Unexplained scietific miracle? Or G-d just heard the praying of the family? And i can tell endless stories about miracles like that...

[Khramaya]

we in medicine all can....
but for every good story there are millions and millions of sad and devastating ones.... people are still dying from malaria, polio, measles, whatever... - what, are they not praying enough? or G-d doesn't hear their prayers? or they are praying the wrong G-d... plus, miracles are miracles, and statistics are statistics... In any case, for me, the model that includes supernatural just doesn't work. If you call G-d Nature - then, sure... but in Judeo -Christian tradition this is not the same, G-d is a supreme entity. In Buddhism we are all one, we are all part of nature, we are G-d -but the word is not used. Much more cohesive -just from my prospective.

[Khramaya]

let's talk for a second on a very common trend of moral superiority in religious people....
To me - it's a turn-off ..... since real believers should be at least , theoretically - humble.
Any comments?

[Олег Сах]

Julia, I typed this before I saw your last post. Very personal subject for me, BTW, will elaborate.
I absolutely agree with the fact that no amount of science can fully explain the human body at this point, or ape's body, or the patterns of butterfly's wings or chameleon's ability to change color or spider's amazing way of survival. But a "special man" who created all of that 6,000 years ago???
P.S. I'm only talking about Judeo Christian model here.

[Mihail]

I have been working with many scientist who are religious. They do not have any problem with that. Most of them clearly separate their faith and science

[Олег Сах]

But, if you believe that God created the universe, how can you view the history of the world in the scientific way? Black holes, galaxies, continental drifts, Ice age, dinosaurs, primordial soup???

[Олег Сах]

Yes, it can be. But I, myself, want to limit this query to followers of specific religion. Judaism. I only am familiar with adept followers of it. The only Christians and Muslims I know are not really religious.

[Khramaya]

well, Lina, sure, if you call nature other names ( G-D), and if you do not see creation as literal, but rather metaphorical - why not, metaphors are great, and if you see the beginning somewhere around the time of Big Bang....

[Светлана Гэмм]

2. Age of the Universe
Science claims that the universe is between 10 and 20 billion years old[11], whereas according to the Torah, there were 6 days of creation plus 5761 years. Although the scientific dating may be inaccurate[12], there has been no serious scientific challenge to these estimates[13].

[Светлана Гэмм]

Several answers to this challenge talk about two types of time. The Maharal reminds us that time, being that it is a part of the created world, is a relative concept[14], and indeed, according to relativity theory, it expands and contracts[15]. This allows Dr. Gerald Schroeder to calculate that about 15 billion years in the center of the universe translates into 6 days on the edge of the universe, where the much heavier gravity slows time down significantly. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan comes up with a similar answer based on traditional sources[16].

[Светлана Гэмм]

Similarly, Rav Shimon Schwabtalks of two types of time, cosmic time and earthly time. The 6 days ofcreation are counted according to cosmic time[17], during which period millions of years may have passed according to our measure of time.
Rav Dessler brings the Vilna Gaon and other sources to show that time before the sin of the First Man was far more contracted[19]; whereas that same time would be perceived today as stretched out into billions of years.***********.simpletoremember.com/faqs/Science_and_Judaism.htm
but I still suggest to those who are truly interested to speak to people who are qualified in both subjects...
there is absolutely no contradictiction in science and religion...moreover, one of the main geneticist has become religious after studying science...

[Khramaya]

if you meant Wilson - yes, he is a respected, although controversial scientist...
here are some very interesting resources on science and religion:
********meaningoflife.tv/
***********.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch.html
********speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/einstein/index.shtml

[Светлана Гэмм]

***********.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Science/Creationism_and_Evolution/Kabbalah.shtml?BFIS
here is an article by a physics professor...
Science and Creation: A Kabbalistic Approach

[Khramaya]

he does not question G-d's existence, though...
I would like to see a real open analysis - doubt, doubt, doubt... shouldn't it be at the core of Jewish study?

[Светлана Гэмм]

check out Gerald Schroeder, an MIT educated physicist...he has many books on that issue - Origin of Life, God according to God, The big bang.

[Khramaya]

OK, thanks.
Now another big question - how does one align with one religion vs another?
for example, when our kids were in school -we sent them to Hebrew school and went to Temple all those years..... none of the stuff that was preached resonated with me, only on "tribal", "cultural" level, and I was spotting hypocrisy every step of the way - which to me was THE biggest deterrent....And I put an honest effort into learning anything I could about Judaism. Still, all too often it seemed like belief is a lack of critical thinking.

[Мария]

Christianity is based on Judaism. So, it's the same.
Majority of great scientists who made the most fundamental discoveries in the history of humankind were deeply religious people.
If you look into the history of Western civilization, most greatest minds were moved by their Judeo/Christian faith.
Science does not explain anything. It just describes.

[Светлана Гэмм]

(sr) you have to separate people (who are far from perfect in many instances) from teachings...I have trouble myself finding things in common with American Jews (who are mostly liberal, sorry to admit :-$ - nothing personal), and will get along with people who are Christians and conservative...I think that because a lot American Jews don't really live by traditional Jewish values today :-(, they are more committed to liberalism, unfortunately...my biased personal observation..

[Khramaya]

Sveta, you do not see contradictions with what you are saying and
"act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with G-d" - your words sound harsh, not humble....- please, do not take it as criticism(F) - this is how it might look.

[Светлана Гэмм]

you said you saw hypocracy..I told you that many times from people thatyou expect to live by the Book, are not guided by the Book anymore..Iwas not saying that every liberal person is a hypocrite or lessmoral..I was addressing your claim about people in the supposedlyreligious community..In my observation, they were not religious..
I personally took out my daughter from the Hebrew Day School because myvalues and views of raising kids were different from a lot of peoplethere..and this is how I explained it (because people's views therewere not traditionally Jewish imo)..

[Jenya Disy]

Many American Jews are quite shallow and materialistic... At the same time they are mostly very liberal... It's a contradiction which I dont fully understand...

[Лина]

I think that because a lot American Jews don't really live by traditional Jewish values today
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you mean we no longer live in the isolation of the Jewish ghettos?

[Лина]

Many American Jews are quite shallow and materialistic
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and American gentiles aren't? and are they really more materialistic than Jews from the FSU?

[Лина]

"while the Jewish tradition was not liberal in substance, it was (sometimes) close to liberal in its cast of mind. There were indeed canonized and authoritative texts, but never a single hierarchy of authoritative interpreters claiming to be God’s representatives and able to make that claim good. There was no Jewish pope, not even a local archbishop. So “another interpretation” was always possible, which, though it might not have equal legal standing (the law was determined by a majority of leading sages), might nonetheless achieve equal intellectual standing. The preservation of dissenting views was an important feature of the tradition, and this suggests a tolerance for disagreement, a readiness to live with ambiguity, a sense of mutual respect at least among the educated elite. All these are also features of liberal political culture."

[Jenya Disyo]

Yes I think American Christians overall are less materialistic then the Jews ...
Maybe it's the teachings of Christ. He did teach about the importance of moral values and of the horrors of materialism... Maybe it's something else... There are a lot of stereotypes about the Jews. For example "JAP" Jewish American Princess....

[Лина]

You honestly believe that Jews are more materialistic than Italians, Greeks, or any other group of relatively recent immigrants?

[Khramaya]

I think we all should stop perpetuating stereotypes here - this will descend again into a nasty exchange.
One can be philanthropic, very spiritual - and live in the nice house.
There is a big difference between reasonable comfort and greed.

[Jenya Disyo]

Stereotypes don't just appear out of the blue... They are based on some fact, and I'm sure that Italians and Greeks have a lot of stereotypes, but Jews are known for being greedy and materialistic, off course not all of them are, but a big number is ( I am not) . Again I'm not talking about all Jews. People are different ... Sorry if I offended anyone...

[Светлана Гэмм]

1. American Jews are the highest earning ethic group, but that's because they are also the most educated..
2. American Jews are very philanthropic (in both Jewish and non-Jewish causes), and it's probably one of the few traditional Jewish values they practice..
********physics.ucsc.edu/cosmo/primack_abrams/htmlformat/Einstein4.html
Julia, check this article Einstein’s View of God..

[Khramaya]

Sveta, this link is not opening, but I read 3 or 4 books by Einstein - his letters, etc.... -quite familiar with the progression of his views and the interpretations ( which are numerous)

[TATYANA]

i dont believ in god or religion --all bs !!!!(N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N)

[Светлана Гэмм]

I can open it fine..but try this one..this article challenges his views and discoveries too by a scientist..
********tinyurl.com/ykrvex5

[Лина]

Stereotypes don't just appear out of the blue... They are based on some fact, and I'm sure that Italians and Greeks have a lot of stereotypes, but Jews are known for being greedy and materialistic
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stereotypes can also be based on half truths and misinformation... Jews using the blood of Christian babies to make matzah is a perfect example.... of course there's no truth to it, but as you said, stereotypes don't appear out of the blue. for centuries, jews were barred fromalmost all professions and were relegated to money lending, tax collecting, and anything else no respectable Christian would take part in... hence the stereotype.

[Jenya Disy]

Jews usingChristianbabies to make matzah? Hmm must be delicous :) Joking... That wasn't astereotype, it was a myth... There is a difference...

[Jenya Disy]

Jews were always prosecuted, but we are talking about here and now in the US where Jews have a tremendous influence on American culture and make more money then any other ethnic group...

[Лина]

just because they supposedly make more money than any other ethnic group, is there a study that shows that they are more materialistic or less philanthropic? again, you've presented no evidence to support your "facts".

[Jenya Disyo]

Noooo, I just know how the jews are... I've talked to many of them, and observed them...

[TATYANA]

i do not insulting -- i do not believing i god ..or religion ... so ???? i have to be sorry ??? no i am not -- or i have to be like you ???

[Khramaya]

no, you do not to be sorry for being a nonbeliever. But maybe calling things that are sacred to other people "BS" - not too sensitive?, ha?

[Светлана Гэмм]

Julia, some are here..
***********.examiner.com/x-12712-Northern-KY-Spirituality-Examiner~y2009m7d31-Attack-on-religious-freedom-in-America

[Romaniya]

***********.endofdiseases.com/file/what_is_religion.html

What is Religion?

***********.endofdiseases.com/file/religion_in_disease.html
Religion in Disease

***********.endofdiseases.com/file/what_is_the_relation_of_god_to_man.html

What is the relation of God to Man?