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post #231 Старый 29.01.2009, 04:35
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Lina, it seems you're lumping several issues all together. So let separate them a bit, shell we?
1. Issue of abortion. I personally support the right of American women to cotrol their own body - within reasonable limits. Just don't tell me you all of a sudden want to have an abortion in a 3rd trimester, when a baby is viable. It is no longer an abortion - it is called infantaside. However, getting back to the issue at hand - we are talking abount American taxpayers supporting abortions in other countries. We shouldn't pay for abortions in other countries NOR support unwanted children in those countries. You are basically proposing a false comparison. And obfuscating facts at hand - a favorite exercise of a liveral-progressive. BTW, both terms are nismoners. Liverals niether stand for Liberty, nor for Progress....
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post #232 Старый 29.01.2009, 04:45
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2. "Mariya, stop lumping all the muslims into one...."
I agree that not all muslims should be considered "terrorists", however the opposite is almost never true - all terrorists are muslims. Be it as it may, the problem with this approach is whilst in theory it is a good notion to try to establish good relationship with muslims, in practice these "good muslims" are voiceless. Show me one muslim country (other than American supported Iraq and Afganistan) where leaders represent the will of their people. Thus, while we can attempt to talk to various muslim countries (including possibly Iran) we should not do it in case of Iran without preconditions (like demanding that Iranian leadership rejected the notion of "wiping Israel of the face of the Earth"), and we should do it with a moral clarity and fortitude that America stands for certain principles - freeedom of religion, expression, assembly and press. We should never compromise on those.
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post #233 Старый 29.01.2009, 04:48
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Natan
I completely agree with you. What people fail to understand is that the only ones who are allowed to speak and voice their opinion in those coutries are corrupt so nothing would change. A lizat' im zhopu for nothing, I don't see much sense in that.
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post #234 Старый 29.01.2009, 04:56
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3. "....to subsidize the wealthy by way of various corporate tax incentives?"
This is another typical liberal canard. Corporations DO NOT pay taxes. They simply pass them on to consumers who purchase products and services offered by those corporations. I do not begrudge wealthy their wealth. Good for them. They pay the lion's share of taxes in this country. BTW, all tax rate tables are available online - I recommend you get a bit informed before making moronic statemens like "taxpayers subsidize wealthy". It's more other way around. Fully 40% of those who work do not pay ANY federal income taxes. These are the people who are targeted for Obama's "tax cut", which is nothing more than a welfare check. You can't cut someone's tax if he didn't pay it in the first place. This simple notion should be obvious even to a liberal drone.
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post #235 Старый 29.01.2009, 05:06
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In short, to completely disarm a liberal of his arguments all you need to do is to use logic, common sense and historical facts. They can no compete in a debate based on merits, unless that debate is accompanied by conspiracy theories and media propaganda.
This is not to say that I was happy with the last republican administration, epecially it's domestic policy. Quite the contrary. Republicans lost because they deserved to lose.
We need to get back to the Regan concept of limited goverment, strong defense, low taxation, robust capitalism.
Here I want to quote President Gerald Ford from his speech in 1975:
"The goverment big enough to give you anything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
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post #236 Старый 29.01.2009, 05:11
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" A lizat' im zhopu for nothing, I don't see much sense in that."
Lizat' zhopy nel'zya, a tzelovatsa v zasos mozhno? Negotiating with terrorists is bad, while going into business with them is good? Talking about double standards. Mariya.
Mariya, when I'm talking about the wealthy, I am not referring to those making 150k, but rather to the upper 5% who own the majority of the wealth in this country. They are the ones receiving subsidies from the government.
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post #237 Старый 29.01.2009, 05:12
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Natan, I was not addressing Obamas' tax cuts, but rather Mariya's outrage at having to pay for abortions. Let me give you an example: " When Wal-Mart builds a new store, they typically try to get the local government to buy the land they want and to finance the construction of the store with tax-free municipal bonds. They then lease the store until it’s owned from a government agency. How do they pay the lease payments on the store? Not from the money they earn in the market. Instead, in many cases, the sales tax you are required to pay at the cash register is kept by Wal-Mart and used to pay the cost of building the store. That means two things happen. First, the schools, the police, the library, the fire department and other government programs don’t get that money. Second, if you are a locally owned competitor and you own Joe’s Department Store, you now have to compete against a company that is getting its building and land for free."
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post #238 Старый 29.01.2009, 05:16
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Natan, I do not begrudge anyone their wealth, but why should the capital gain tax be half of that of income tax? Why should someone who made money on an insider tip pay less taxes than someone who cleans toilets for a living? I do not begrudge them their wealth, but I think that they too should pay their fair share of taxes.
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post #239 Старый 29.01.2009, 05:22
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"why should the capital gain tax be half of that of income tax? "
Lina, can you tell me what is the Capital Gain tax rate vs. Income Tax rate of someone who is "cleans toilets for a living". Let's start dealing with FACTS and not with notions, impressions and misconceptions. For instance, what do you think is an average salary of someone who "cleans toilets for a living"? Is it fair to say that it is somewhere in the 25-30K range? If so, what would be his/her tax rate? This has to include so-called EIC (earned income credit). I suggest you do some online research and then we can discuss FACTS....
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post #240 Старый 29.01.2009, 05:27
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"We need to get back to the Regan concept of limited goverment, "
Sorry Natan, but I do not agree that corporations can be left to their own devices. If history has taught us anything, it is that corporations can not be trusted. Look at the Enron scandal, Madoff dooping investers out of billions, and last but not least -Merrill Lynch paying out millions in bonuses, as thousands were losing their jobs and the company was being taken over.
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