just for a person who does not have to mention god as a driving force for their decision..
Question: What do you think Carrie Prejan (miss CA) was saying when she said "sorry, but I was raised to believe that a marriage is between a man and a woman"
Transltion: I was raised Christian, and we, as Christians, believe that a man should be (or marry) with a woman.

i have no idea what this has to do with anything...
i was raised to believe in Дед Мороз, also in a fact that being cold causes me to catch cold, and other such non-sense, then i grew up and had a chance to re-evaluate my beliefs.

What do her Christian values say about posing topless and parading around in a tiny bikini in front of millions of drooling men? Anything in there about hypocrisy and not judging others?

Svetlana to add to your post we call religious people like Sarah, Bush or Ms CA freaks BUT fagots like Paris Hilton normal? Isn’t there something totally wrong with that?

i have no idea what this has to do with anything...
i was raised tobelieve in Дед Мороз, also in a fact that being cold causes me to catchcold, and other such non-sense, then i grew up and had a chance tore-evaluate my beliefs
:-) As silly as it may sound to you ;-), but it has to do with a lot of things - people's traditions, holidays (i.e. Christmas, etc), definition of marriage, and other things - it's just their values! It may not be yours, and it should not be the same, but people should not be ashamed of their values or believes.
P.S. you can catch a cold from being in a cold temp - cold temp compromizes your immune system. :-)

it does sound funny to me :) a tradition of defining how other people should live their private lives
on cold, i suggest you actually look at current published research - total offtop.

it's just their values! It may not be yours, and it should not be the same, but people should not be ashamed of their values or believes.
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So if a grown woman keeps believing in Santa Claus - no shame in that? Can't your statement also be applied to homosexuals, pedophiles, cannibals, polygamists, muslims...? Or is it only the Christiansthat are allowed to have "values".

Although I consider myself a "non-believer" (courtesy of soviet school system upbringing) I have no problem whatsoever with a President (man or woman) who pray and ask for Creator's Providence when making difficult decisions affecting potentially millions of his/her fellow citizens. And who are not ashamed to admit their reliance on God publicly. Washington did it. Lincoln did it. So did Reagan. All great men. And great Presidents.

Like many of the founding fathers, Washingtom was a deist.
"Washington gives us little in his writings to indicate his personal religious beliefs. As noted by Franklin Steiner in "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents" (1936), Washington commented on sermons only twice. In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." He attended church rarely, and did not take communion
"

"Abraham Lincoln's religious beliefs are a matter of controversy. Lincoln frequently referenced God and quoted the Bible, yet never formally joined any church. He was private about his beliefs and respected the beliefs of others. Since his assassination, many attempts have been made to define his beliefs as either religious or secular. He was said to be an admirer of the deist author Thomas Paine, and it has been reported that he wrote a manuscript essay challenging orthodox Christianity modelled on Paine's book The Age of Reason, which a friend burned to protect him from ridicule"

Mike, I do not confuse a religious fanatic with a God-fearing person. Neither should you.
It is more likely (or at least as likely) for an atheist to "push a button" as a person who believes in "Greater Power".

Lina,
I don't doubt your scholarly ability to scan Internet and Wikipedia for information. The quotes you're siting, however are not contradicting anything I said in the least.
It is one thing to be a deeply religious person, it is quite another to try to impose your believes on others. I have no problem with the first, but do not support the second.

We're way of topic, but...
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Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
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Could an athiest get away with saying: the satan made me do it? I'm tired of these religious fanatics using God as a scapegoat.

Actually history tells us that evil men do evil things to their fellow human beings regardless of whether these men are religious zealots or atheists....

Natan, your sarcasm is hilarious - a real knee slapper (fr)
and I'm not ashamed to say that I (L)Google

First of all this is the first time I see something like this being attributed to GWB - I would like to see some corroboration before I take this particular statement at face value.
BTW, an atheist does not believe in a Satan anymore than in God. So you your analogy does not work. Sorry, got to run.

Natan, that i agree with..
History teaches us that smart men ( and women ) exploit sheep to reach their goals. And it's it Zeus, God, Vishnu, Jesus, sacred cow, national unity, they are evil, or whatever else their idea is - largely irrelevant.
As long as sheep buy into the idea of the leader, said leader is able to manipulate them to their own benefit.
Happened for 1000s of years and will not stop any time soon.
Some of us chose not to be sheep, tho..

For those who do not want to be sheep:
Read Mark Levin's latest book "Liberty and Tyranny". Fascinating, excellent read. I got mine on Father's Day. :-D :-D :-D :-D

Natan, I know that atheists (supposedly) don't believe in anything, so they are free to use anything from Satan to their mothers - a scapegoat by any other name...

And along those lines, couldn't a religious phanatic "push the button" and later claim that Satan made him do it - if you believe in one (God), youmost likelybelieve in the other... I'd prefer a president who takes responsibility for his own actions and doesn't see himself as a crusader on a mission from God.

I'd prefer a president who takes responsibility for his own actions and doesn't see himself as a crusader on a mission from God.



And that would be who?

Mike, why does it bother you so much? No one wants you to be something or believe you don't want to, but you (personally) do find more common sense in politicians who are more religious (i.e conservatives) than in those who are not so much (liberals). :-)
And can you name one American president or a politician throughout American history who was religious and did something crazy because of it?

"And along those lines, couldn't a religious fanatic "push the button" and later claim that Satan made him do it -"
--- Religious fanatic could. But I don't think such a person would be elected President of the United States.

Svetlana, unlike what you would like to believe
conservative != religious
liberal != atheists
I know tons of a-religious conservative and tons of religious liberals.
I have several issues with religious freaks
1) they tend to pass laws that the rest of us have to abide by. Such as anti-abortion laws pre Roe-Wade, also some states had laws to prevent any kind of contraception, other states would forbid oral sex, etc. It's all due to religious retardation by the sheep
2) i need a president to base his decision on a lot more than a consultation with God.
********tinyurl.com/kpkfd8

You didn't answer my question - which president (since you said-Bush and Palin are religious freaks) made decisions after consultation with G-d?
P.S. I know that not ALL conservatives are religious (but most are).Some are just fiscal or foreign policy conservatives. About the laws that come from religion-some still do (i.e. shall not murder, shall not still, etc.). About the laws on sex and contraception-people's values change, the way they practive their religion change, hence they adjust the laws.
I agree with everything Bush said in that clip. Which part do you have a problem with? Or you just generally can't tolerate believing people? :-)

You didn't answer my question - which president (since you said-Bush and Palin are religious freaks) made decisions after consultation with G-d?
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you're forcing me to repeat myself...
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Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Lina, Natan already asked you to validate your source. Please, do so, before you use this quote for a third time.

Lina is not the only one who can make points by quoting Wikipedia:
Shaath served as the Palestinian Authority's first ever foreign minister from April 2003 to February 2005. Shaath made news on 2005-10-07 by commenting for a BBC documentary that in a 2003 meeting with United States President George W. Bush, Bush told him and other Palestinian officials that Bush was "driven with a mission from God."
According to Shaath, the quotation was this:
"God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did.
"And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it."

But here is the rest of the info, that Lina conveniently omitted:
Shaath later qualified his comments, saying that he and other world leaders at a Jordan summit two years ago "understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted."
Both the White House and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who was also present at the meeting, denies that Bush ever made such a statement.
The question is: "Why should we believe one Palestinian leader over the other?"

Actually, this was my source: ***********.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

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so I didn't conveniently omit anything.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in June 2003 too, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."
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"President Bush said that God guided him in what he should do, and this guidance led him to go to Afghanistan to rid it of terrorism after 9/11 and led him to Iraq to fight tyranny," he said.
"We understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted."
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********news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4320586.stm

Lina, can you reconcile these two statements:

1. "....Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who was also present at the meeting, denies that Bush ever made such a statement."

2. "Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in June 2003 too, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

I can't. Clearly one of the Abbas's is lying

"In July 2004, he stopped to campaign with some Amish folks at Lapp Electric Service in Smoketown, Pa. Just as the meeting ended, Bush, according to Mennonite Weekly Review columnist Jack Brubaker, told the group: "I trust God speaks through me. Without that I couldn't do my job." This also produced White House denials that Bush used those words."
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Damn those lying Mennonites!:-D
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also:
"But Bush has said similar things on other occasions," Brubaker noted, citing B ob Woodward's "Plan of Attack," where Bush says he's "surely not going to justify the war based on God . . . Nevertheless . . . I pray I be as good a messenger of his will as possible."
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***********.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301688.html

Lina, what did you and all of your compadres said when it was alleged that Obama was present at an anti Israeli meeting? Exactly. Can we leave this hearsay alone?

Natan, the first statement was taken out of wikipdeia - which can be edited by anyone: you, me, GW himself... the second from bbc - a source I consider just a tad more reliable.

Do you, guys, think that Palin decided to resigned because G-d had told her so? (fr)

Lina, I don't whether Bush said whatever he said or not, but please do not confuse a statement by BBC (supposedly independent and unbiased organization, let's stipulate that) with a statement by a former Palestinian politician that BBC simply re-printed.

The key phase in the entire article that you've sited is this:
"Nabil Shaath says:"
This was not presented by BBC as a quote for Bush. This was presented as a quote from Nabil Shaath quoting someone else.

So without getting into more silly semanthycs - it is what it is, "hearsay" as Oleg properly noted...

Getting back to Pailin, she does not strike me as one of those "religious nuts" that everyone on the left so afraid of. She seem to have strong religious convictions - nothing wrong with that, but that's a far cry from being a religious fanatic.

And, btw, fanatics are not only religious. There are plenty of other types - and they are just as dangerous, if not more.

Now back to our regular scheduled programming....
Tune in to Fox news. They will be talking about Palin's rating next.
I will try to recap if you are near TV.
P.S. Lina, Fox News is "other news channel"

Natan, if those words don't sound like dear old George,then I don't know where you've been for the last 8 years... also, did you bother to read the article in post? and how about all the other incidents? if it walks like a duck...
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***********.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301688.html