религиозная полемика
 

Шутка Славика навеяла воспоминание. (ch)
Когда я переехала в свою нынешнюю квартиру (в почти полностью еврейском доме) на косяке входной двери был след от предыдущей мезузы, и я подумала, не проявить ли мне солидарность с народом и повесить туда новую.
Но мне было важно знать, что же за текст там кроется внутри. И я начала расспрашивать всех религиозных знакомых. Выяснилось, что текст о том, как надо угождать богу (путем соблюдений некоторых ритуалов), и бог позаботится о тебе. А вот если ты не прислушаешься ко всем этим правилам, бог тебя накажет.
Не повесила я мезузу.
Я плохо реагирую на ультиматумы.

Значит так - я мезузу повесила, и обо мне Б-г позаботился. :-P
Now, почему Б-г "позаботился" о Рабиновиче фиг его знает...*-)

I think that any religious paraphernalia flaunted into fellow man's face is the sign of hypocrisy. The SPIRITUAL relationship with God cannot be presented by a shmata on your head or an outfit or a trinket on your door or on your neck. Anyone who feels closer to God by following a ritual actually proves the weakness of his faith because he works hard on showing his faith to others.
The only reasonable explanation I have of the rituals is to feel the sense of belonging to the group of like-minded individuals. The only reason my husband nailed a mezuza to the door (after TEN years of us having it) is because an ethnic Ukrainian was coming over for dinner. Just to warn a visitor, "You see this? Now, don't say what I think you could be thinking!" We had a pleasant evening.
And if we should be afraid of God's wrath (and hang a thingie on the door), let me quote Elie Weisel, "Fear not God's wrath, but His indifference."

My mother was very proud of me that day. Just so it's clear it was a Canadian-born Ukrainian, if you know what I mean.

I think that any religious paraphernalia flaunted into fellow man'sface is the sign of hypocrisy. The SPIRITUAL relationship with Godcannot be presented by a shmata on your head or an outfit or a trinketon your door or on your neck
1. Why is it a hypocracy?
2. How do you develop a "spiritual relationship with God" if not through religion? Religion is the vehicle to God...

The only reason my husband nailed a mezuza to the door (after TEN yearsof us having it) is because an ethnic Ukrainian was coming over fordinner.
I am not getting this motivation. What exactly were you trying to demonstrate to him? (md)

Religion is the vehicle to God...
See, that's nonsense. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he is everywhere. In every particle of the universe he exists. He is as much inside the house of worship as he is inside an ocean trench. God shouldn't need a car to come to you, the faithful, because he's inside you already. A priest is, thus, useless, because he is no more filled with His presence than you are.

You are right - he is everywhere, but how do you develop a relationship with him? Why do we need him (or the relationship with him) at all from your point of you?
If you want to spiritally evolve, how do you measure your evolvement if not through religion?

В этом и содержится проблема организованной религии: люди погрязают в ритуалах, ошибочно полагая, что одно их соблюдение и делает их праведными, совершенно при этом пренебрегая такими понятиями, как элементарная доброта.
I was once in a Hasidic neighborhood, and I had an hour or two to kill. I knew there was a library somewhere around, but didn't know exactly where. So I asked this elderly woman if she could direct me to it. Она окинула меня этаким высокомерно-осуждающим взглядом (и я даже не была при этом как-то вызывающе одета, unless you consider jeans and a body-hugging top to be such), и процедила сквозь зубы, что не знает. А ведь это человек на закате своей жизни. Который ни-че-му за всю жизнь шаббатов и кашрута не научился.

If you choose to develop and evolve your relationship with god, then why would you choose to do so through the fallacy of man-made church? The scriptures weren't faxed here from heaven. How do you REALLY know that God's listening? because some rabbi told someone to say it five thousand years ago?
And I mostly certainly wouldn't measure the evolution of faith by the length of my skirt or by the number of Hail Marys or by the amount of infidels I kill.

I still don't get it. How are the pogroms (I am guessing that's what you were alluding to) relevant to you, and especially now, and after so many years in this country?
OR to the Ukrainian friend you invited? (md)

You can't judge about the whole religion/religions by the action of the few....and just they are people...they do do a lot of acts of kindness through charity, helping their community, helping Israel...
but maybe (?) orthodox/hassidic jews dd take it a bit much or literally in their rituals, still doesn't mean it's all meaningless...

Который ни-че-му за всю жизнь шаббатов и кашрута не научился.
In this case, I'm all for the religion. This woman's life have had purpose - rituals, children, husband, rituals. It must be wonderful to have your life so orderly and arranged. So what if that's all she knows? Maybe, she has nine kids and that's her greatest wealth and knowledge.
Maybe, she's lucky not to have the time and space to ask some dumb-ass questions like, "Зачем меня мама на свет родила?" She already knows.

If you choose to develop and evolve your relationship with god, thenwhy would you choose to do so through the fallacy of man-made church?The scriptures weren't faxed here from heaven. How do you REALLY knowthat God's listening?
Well, you do it not because some rabbi told you but because YOU believe in him (God)...and also believe that Torah is the word of God...
Otherwise, what is the purpose at all in believing?
If you truly believe in God, you will believe in his commandments and follow them...

BTW, Hasidum do not support Israel the way my family does. They chant "Down Israel!" every time we attend Pride of Israel parade. They think that we don't deserve a secular democratic state because we're waiting for something or someone. Or some other nonsense.

Well, not all, I think you mean the Haredi. I saw them stand on the other side of the parade with the "Palestinians".
But it is true, even if the given Hasidic faction is open to the idea of a Jewish state (before the arrival of Moshiach), they don't get themselves involved in Israel advocacy. Orthodox Jews often do, though.

Still, you gotta admire the fact that such diversity of opinion is even possible within the Jewish nation. In Islam there would have been a mass fattwah issued on their heads the moment they made a squeak against anything.
Not that it has anything to do with the topic. (H)

Anyone who feels closer to God by following a ritual actually proves the weakness of his faith because he works hard on showing his faith to others.
.
I don't even know where to begin arguing the fallacy of that statement. But what's the point... What right do any of us have to critisize any ritualone choosesto feel closer to God - as long as it doesn't involve sacrificing babies or something similar.If going to a church, praying several times a day, or meditating in a garden helps one develope a relationship with their creator, than who are we to judge, and what exactly isthe harm?How is it diffrent from parents using certain rituals tohave a closer relationship with their children,what about celebrating the day of your birth, Sunday night dinner with your family, date nights, anniversaries... Any ritual or tradition will have as much or as little meaning as you choose to impart to it.

Well, not all, I think you mean the Haredi. I saw them stand on the other side of the parade with the "Palestinians".
Actually, that's not the complete picture.
I believe it is one thing not to support the creation of the state of Israel, on general principle. It is quite another to stand there at the Israel Day parade holding Palestinian flags, which was what they did.

And yet quite another to send a delegation to Iran to discuss the destruction of Israel.
But anyhow, the topic is not about them. (ch)
It is interesting, though, where blind religious faith might lead one.

Who cares about wedding rings? They have as much or as little meaning as you want them to - so do most things for that matter. Bur people wear them, and we usually don't mock those that do.

Ok, this is not about rituals or полемикa, it's about how it's connected to the one's belief in God. And I already mentioned how - if you believe in God AND the Holy books you just follow the God's will and that's reflected in your life...
But this is not to say that following rituals is above the moral behavior or our treatment of the fellow human beings...Honesty, morality, integritity - all come first...above all the rituals...
The problems is if you don't follow the religious teaching, then it becomes all relative. What do then measure your "morality" against then?

Ok, this is not about rituals or полемикa, it's about how it's connected to the one's belief in God. And I already mentioned how - if you believe in God AND the Holy books you just follow the God's will and that's reflected in your life...
The problems is if you don't follow the religious teaching, then it becomes all relative. What do then measure your "morality" against then?
.
I don't agree with that, I believe that a sense of morality predates any religious writings. I thinkthatsome of the religious dogmais based on this inherent sense of morality - that's why, for the most part,it really doesn't matter which religion you follow. Following traditions and rituals (not necessarily religious ones), helps people focus and stay connected with this inherent morality, amist all the distractions and temptations of the outside world.

all going round and round....
1- spirituality does not need to be rooted in religion, it's been said again and again.....
2- morality does need to be dictated by 2- 5 thousand year old books, morality simply follows karmic rules of cause and effect,
3- organized religion is inherently full of hypocrisy and, although provides sense of community, does not nurture free thought
4-ritual is healthy as anchor and as symbol of "belonging to your tribe", but when taken to extreme becomes excluding, limiting and tool of manipulation and control.
5- all of the discussions in previous posts are limited to western religions with their "vertical" hierarchy ( that by itself implies control ) and don't even begin to touch other systems of thought with more organic, "all is one" concepts.

Народ, религия - это ничто иное как форма общественного сознания. Это не панацея, не истиный путь, не спасение, а всего лишь форма общественного сознания. Поэтому Юля, ваши узкие джинсы были осуждены представительницей, вернее ее носителем. Именем религии было совершено много убийств и страшных преступлений, ничего не умеющими общего с символом той самой веры.

Этика не обязательно является частью религии. Как раз поворот к гумманизму в 18 веке вывел этику из-под эгиды религии. Но не все страны прошли через Реформацию и Просвещение. Мусульмане остались там где они и были 500 лет назад. А сейчас, когда глобализация свела все народы в единое информационное пространство, их социальные устои и вера в том числе коренным образом противостоят остальному миру. Вот отсюда и исламский радикализм и его оружие, терроризм.

Galina, you are right (Y) a lot of these rituals have a lot to do with ethics...like something like eating kosher meat has to do with ethical treatment of the animal, killing of the animal in a way the animal would not feel pain or suffer...hunting, for example is prohibited in Judaism - you should not kill an animal for sport, and so on...

But this is not to say that following rituals is above the moralbehavior or our treatment of the fellow human beings...Honesty,morality, integrity - all come first...above all the rituals...
I think so, too. But often organized religions provide the moral behavior baseline to the faithful for motives other than God's directives.

***********.youtube.com/watch?v=whLYM9o946w
this is а fun video...и только не надо потом говорить. что религия "does not nurture free thought"....(tr)
:-D

Psychologist Matt J. Rossano argues that religion emerged after morality and built upon morality by expanding the social scrutiny of individual behavior to include supernatural agents. By including ever watchful ancestors, spirits and gods in the social realm, humans discovered an effective strategy for restraining selfishness and building more cooperative groups. The adaptive value of religion would have enhanced group survival.

Лина, вы правы. это еще раз подтверждает тот факт, что религия - это форма общественного сознания. Выполняет ли религя организационные функции в обществе. В Западой политической традиции - уже нет, а восточной, особенно в мусульманской, даже очень.

Я решил откопать юлину тему для наших спорщиков. А также, я видел недавно bumper sticker "Keep Christ in Christmas". Бытует мнение, что в превращении Рождества в "Holiday" виноваты евреи. Я так не считаю. Я уверен что это выгодно большим корпорациям, ощущающим, в отличие от Лины, фундаментальное отчуждение масс от религии. Рождество как таковое - это всего лишь религиозный праздник, который грозил отойти на задний план вместе с Sunday School, neighborhood priests, confirmations and such. Чтобы не упустить добровольно-принудительное опустошение карманов каждый декабрь, big boys решили всю эту вакханалию назвать "The Holiday". Ваше мнение?

На моей работе Christmas превратился в Holidays лет 5 назад. Больше всех этим возмущались еврей из Киева и мусульманин из Пакистана которым Christmas ну никак не мешал и не оскорблял. Остальные (христиане), отнеслись к этому спокойно. По-прежнему, в Декабре все получили, на выбор, frozen turkey or 10 pound brick of ham. Мусульманин выбрал turkey, киевлянин .....

I am glad that Christmas is becoming a Holiday..
For many years when people tell me "Merry Christmas" i usually respond with "Allah Akbar"
It's still annoying that Christmas is somehow a federal holiday, what happened with the separation of church as state?
I would rather have 2 extra days around the new years.. at least that's a meaningful holiday for everyone (unless you use some back asswords calendar ).

radical...
ну блин, понаехали тут, куда страна катится? Обама президент, атеисты хотят отменить Christmas that was made into a federal holiday into 1835 by Pres. Jackson...а потом спрашивают при чем тут евреи к making it a "holiday"...
what's next? October revolution, mandatory pot smoking, f#$% evrything that moves then have an abortion to prevent crime...God help us...
btw, Merry Christmas! :-)

А мы с семьей ездим в гости к родне мужа на Кристмас .......они правда более религиозны чем мы ну и ради Бога.......мы им не мешаем они нам не мешают......молитву прочитают потом дружно сядем за стол у дяди в доме отведаем вкусной еды .....пообщаемся с родственничками дальними и ближними обменяемся подарками......и довольные едем домой.......вот наш Кристмас.......а потом еще и с русскоязычными друзьями соберемся и весело отметим, подарки детям надарим.......красота 2 недели отдыхаем...... я дождаться не могу для меня это маленький отпуск......

Oleg, why did you feel the need to single me out in your post?It was brought on by your denial of Galina's position in the posts placed before I revived the subject.

Рождество мой самый любимый праздник. А насчёт Христианской религии это одна из многочисленных еврейских сказок об избранном народе чобы можно было выжить в те далёкие жестокие времена, а теперь используют для зарабатывания денег, контроля, промывания мозгов... (md)

насчёт Христианской религии это одна из многочисленных еврейских сказок об избранном народе чобы можно было выжить в те далёкие жестокие времена, а теперь используют для зарабатывания денег, контроля, промывания мозгов..
Не поняла...что именно еврейсая сказка? Христианская religia? Рождество?
Гена обясни пожалуиста как эти ужасные евреи зделали так что ВСЯ америка празднует рождество?

А мне нравится Генин взгляд на христианскую религию и на избранный народ... (md) А вот что сказал об этом народе один из отцов основателей об этом народе...говорит о многом об людях, которые основали эту страну, и их отличие от остального христианского мира...
I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more tocivilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed inblind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jewsto be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They arethe most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans andtheir empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have givenreligion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs ofmankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”
- John Adams,Second President of theUnited States