ПРОСТО О ПОЛИТИКЕ

[Светлана Гэмм]

I don't care if the left equates it to racial profiling.. no one will die if they are asked about their legal status.. if it saves tax payers money, reduces crime and save lives by catching and sending anyone who is here illegally back, I am all for it..

[Мария]

I agree... Why should anyone even pay attention to the complaints of racial profiling? It's such a bogus issue.

[Лина]

yet you consider the race question on the US census intrusive, unconstitutional...
I can totally see some overzealous cop on a power trip abusing his authority, and this thing getting way out of hand. does this mean that anyone visiting Arizona has to carry a passport on their person at all times?

[Лина]

what if you're a passenger and the cop thinks you look suspicious? what if you're a tourist? you think a cop can tell the difference between a real visa and a fake?
nothing about this reminds you of the former Soviet Union?

[Лина]

Under the new law, signed by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer (R) on Friday, legal immigrants will be required to carry documents proving their status. Police will question anyone they "reasonably suspect" of being undocumented,
I don't see any mention of speeding here.

[Светлана Гэмм]

obviously only someone who knows nothing about the Soviet Union could only have made the comparison.. there was no one who wanted to come to the SU illegally or legally.. people wanted to run from there.. we have a federal law on the books that can land you in prison for coming and staying here illegally.. if feds don't enforce it, the states have every right too..

[Натан Мэвэ]

Светлана,
The new Arizona law is exact copy of the federal statute that is on the books already, that allows Immigration and Customer Enforcement Agency (ICE) to question people in order to determine if they are in the country legally.
In the face of the Federal Government's total abdication of its responsibility to protect the borders and actually enforce THE LAW, the state government of Arizona and its law enforcement agencies will now be able to enforce the law that the feds refuse to enforce.

[Лина]

please, you know if this was Obama's initiative, you'd be the first to yell something about communism, privacy, and violation of your basic rights and freedoms, while waving the constitution and the American flag.

[Лина]

ICE can not detain nor can they deport you simply because you refuse to answer.Some people choose not to speak at all. Others choose to identifythemselves by name and ask to speak with an attorney. If you areultimately arrested, you may want to identify yourself by name so thatfriends and family members can contact you.
***********.washingtonlawhelp.org/documents/1974518106EN.pdf?stateabbrev=/WA/
The new law makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. without proper documents. It allows the police to stop anyone on "reasonable suspicion" that they may be in the country unlawfully and arrest them on the spot if they can't produce identity papers. The police aren't required to have a search warrant or even to suspect some illegal action has occurred before questioning a person.
it's really not the same thing.

[Лина]

Arizona's police chiefs association opposed the new law. Local enforcement agencies don't want responsibility for enforcing national immigration laws because they say it makes them less effective at their day jobs. When people in immigrant communities see the local police as deportation agents, they become less likely to report crimes and help in investigations. Conditions worsen.



Restrictionists insist, with some justification, that these laws are shrinking the illegal population. The larger reality is that border crossings track the economy. The recent downturn has meant fewer illegal entries and more immigrants going home. Before the law, Arizona's illegal population had fallen 18% in the past year.

[Лина]

The most effective way to reduce illegal entries anddefuse these tensions is to expand legal channels, including guestworker programs. This would reduce illegal immigration and free upsecurity resources to threats from drug gangs and the like.
********online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703465204575208382473306238.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion

[Мария]

please, you know if this was Obama's initiative, you'd be the first toyell something about communism, privacy, and violation of your basicrights and freedoms, while waving the constitution and the Americanflag.
If this were obamka's initiative, I would vote for him:-)
Language, borders, culture.

[Лина]

so you would be perfectly fine with being hauled off to jail just because you don't happen to have your passport on you while visiting the state of Arizona?

[Лина]

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."


Now I'm not comparing Arizona to Nazi Germany, as most conservatives here wouldn't hesitate to do (and have done), were the shoe on the other foot, but there are some undeniable paralleles: a group of people is being singled out based mainly on their appearance, and some of us being perfectly fine with it primarily because we don't think it could happen to us.

[Светлана Гэмм]

yep, THEY also come for people who break our laws or are criminals..(hu) .. because this country has a rule of law, or we (or some) still strive to have it..

[Лина]

I repeat, if you look like a foreigner and don't have the proper papers on you (who amongst us carries their passport around?), they will come for you.

[Алексей Пэтк]

One thing that I don't understand is how Republicans can reconcile their opposition to introduction of "federal ID" ("internal passport") and acceptance of the new Arizona law. If someone can clarify this to me, I'll appreciate that.

[Натан Мэвэ]

No need for an "internal passport", Алексей. Most people who are here legally carry a driver's license, a credit card, a job ID or some other form of identification. I am not necessarily 100% supportive of this law at the state level, but this is really an act of desperation on the part of Arizonians in light of total federal ineptitude.

[Алексей Пэтк]

Well, but this is where my problem is. Usual driver's license (or any other ID) does NOT have your citizenship status and cannot be used for determination of your legal status. One would be required to show a federally-issued ID (passport, passport card or naturalization/birth certificate), which goes against this basic position of the Republican Party.
The only exception (of state-issued ID) is "enhanced" drivers license (for instance, issued by the state of Michigan), which can be used to travel to Canada. But this is not a mandatory ID.

[Khramaya]

I also "loved" how McCain swiftly commented on this law - that it's a measure reacting to inability of current Govment to secure the borders ( or something along the same lines) - give me break, where were you for the 8 yrs preceding this administration? - it is nearly impossible to do....
I think it's going to backfire....nobody wants to be stopped just for the heck of it. It is the same thing as they do in Moscow towards "litza kavkazskoj nacional'nosti".
What we need is the law that will allow all those people to find work legally and pay into our tax base, that supports their medical care in this country......And very very strict enforcement of legal employment.

[Светлана Гэмм]

in order to obtain a driver license in AZ, you need to submit your birth certificate or passport.. so, whoever is in the state illegally can't obtain driver license..

[Алексей Пэтк]

Now, if this is so, what is the point of this law then? If you are found driving w/out a license, you are in violation of the law. If I remember current regulations correctly, THEN you can be checked for your legal status.
Also, what if you do not drive?
IMHO, what should be enforced is border security and laws against people who hire illegal immigrants, as well as deportation laws.

[Светлана Гэмм]

if you are caught driving w/out a license or suspected in committing a crime, now the police can verify your legal status and report you to federal authorities.. before they were not authorized to do it..

[Лина]

who said they can only stop you if you're driving? and what if you're visiting from out of state or another country?

[Лина]

The new law makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. without proper documents. It allows the police to stop anyone on "reasonable suspicion" that they may be in the country unlawfully and arrest them onthe spot if they can't produce identity papers. The police aren'trequired to have a search warrant or even to suspect some illegalaction has occurred before questioning a person.

[Лина]

In other words, you can be on vacation in Arizina, a cop can overhear your thick Russian accent, suspect that you might be one of those Russians who are here illegally, ask you for your documents (your Florida license won't suffice), and if you fail to produce either your passport or naturaliztion papers, he can haul you off to jail.

[Светлана Гэмм]

that's why the majority of Americans support this kind of measures and don't buy into the crazy lefties' arguments..(md) ..most states have the same requirement for obtaining a driver license, most people (law-abiding) are willing to give this kind of authority to the police in order to uphold the law.. people who oppose it are just open boarder people, they want to allow anyone to come here legally or illegally regardless how the American people are affected - becoming crime victims, financially drained, etc..

[Лина]

most states is not the same as all states, not all people have a driver's license, and even those that do - not always on them... and of course there are tourists, exchange students...

[Лина]

and don't buy into the crazy lefties' arguments
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really? more crazy than your whining about the constitutionality of the US census? at least they're not hypocrites.

[Алексей Пэтк]

Ok, so that IS the issue -- does this law allow cops to stop you ON A SUSPICION or only after you commit a violation of some kind.
Otherwise, please explain me my rights given by my Constitution!!!

[Лина]

most people (law-abiding) are willing to give this kind of authority to the police in order to uphold the law..
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it all depends on the law that's being upheld. are you in any immediate danger from an illegal alien?

[Светлана Гэмм]

as I understand they have to have a reason (just like presently) to stop you, only then they are authorized to inquire about you immigration status if they have a suspicion you are here illegally..

[Лина]

most states have the same requirement for obtaining a driver license
--------------------------------------------------------------
and how can the Arizona police verify an out of state driver's license?

[Лина]

as I understand they have to have a reason (just like presently) tostop you, only then they are authorized to inquire about youimmigration status if they have a suspicion you are here illegally..
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suspicion based on what? your appearance or the way you sound? how would you like it if a cop asked for your documents every time you opened your mouth? it wouldn't at all make you feel like a second class citizen?

[Лина]

and for the last time, if you insist on using the term "crazy lefties", I will start referring to the right as the dim-witted repubes.

[Алексей Пэтк]

Does this new Arizona law allow cops to ask a homeowner, who's lawn is being mowed by a Mexican-looking person for a proof of contract with all immigration checks in?
How soon police start to ask for a "$20 donation" in exchange for a immigration document check -- as I was last time I visited Moscow?

[Светлана Гэмм]

here.. I think this is it.. read what it allows and what it doesn't.. why? you have an illegal mowing your lawn? ;-)
***********.courthousenews.com/2010/04/16/AzSB1070.pdf

[Алексей Пэтк]

Nope -- I mow my own lawn -- good exercise :-).
I'll look through the linked document once I get home tonight -- thanks!

[Алексей Пэтк]

Actually, I now think that it would be insufficient to present a driver's license to verify someone's immigration status. This follows from the federal laws governing entrance into the United States. Now each person entering the US must present a valid passport or other authorized document. Driver's license is not sufficient for this purpose. Hence the problem.

[Натан Мэвэ]

"IMHO, what should be enforced is border security and laws against people who hire illegal immigrants, as well as deportation laws."
I agree with that. The problem is that the Federal Government is NOT enforcing these laws and thus states basically have to fend for themselves. The problem for the longest time has been of both republican and democrat making. They are both equally culpable - republicans want cheap labor and democrats (pushing for amnesty) want permanent Hispanic voting majority.
In the end, both exploit illegal immigrants and the American people get screwed. In reality immigration reform is one of the easiest things to achieve, provided there is a will on the part of the political elite. So far this elite has been ignoring American people. This is about to change - starting this coming November.
Take the following basic steps and "immigration reform" is in the bag:

[Натан Мэвэ]

1. Strict protection of the border and enforcement of the deportation laws - you cross the border illegally - you are deported, no "ifs", "ands" or "buts". No appeals, court hearings, debates. If that means we need to build a toll fence - build it. Utilize high tech surveillance equipment - use it. If it means we need to deploy National Guard or even active duty troops - do it. Many countries (including Mexico) have troops on their border.
2. Strict enforcement of the hiring practices. No hiring of illegals. Period. You are found hiring illegals - you're fined. Big time. Your business found hiring illegals repeatedly - you're put out of business, fined and put in jail. You;ll see how quickly jobs for illegals will dry up and they will have no choice, but to go home (and apply for work visa - LEGALLY)

[Натан Мэвэ]

3. Creation of a robust system where people can apply for a work visa (and processed in an expeditious manner) so they can work in this country LEGALLY. This can and should be done in American Embassy in Mexico City and consulates around the country. Staff it to handle necessary large volume traffic. Have this visa active for 2-3 years and being able to renew it as many times as necessary. Meantime, long time foreign workers can pursue opportunity to first apply for permanent residence and then for citizenship - LEGALLY, in the order they applied and according to the LAW!!!
This is not an "a la carte" solution. You can't pick and choose the one option you like. They either all work TOGETHER, or they DON'T WORK !!!!
End of story. Problem solved.
Oh, ye, one more thing - it will never happen!!!! - not until we vote these bums out and replace them with people with common sense and the balls to implement it.

[Светлана Гэмм]

even so, I don't see it as a problem at all.. if you have documents, you would have to carry them with you (passport, visa, green card).. if the state feels like they have a big problem with people inhabiting their state who broke the federal law, contributing to drug and violent crimes, bankrupting their hospitals, they have every right to deal with it if the federal government doesn't.. Phoenix alone has half a million illegals.. the drug cartels don't have an American employer to punish, maybe only in Mexico.. and that's outside of the American government jurisdiction.. (ch)
PS. if someone doesn't like the AZ law, they are free not to travel there.. but if people of AZ has decided this is the measure they have to take it, it's their right to protect themselves (the latest poll show 70% support)..

[Мария]

What I don't get is why we can't secure the border the way it was secured in USSR? No one could get in, not even speaking of getting out. So, what's the deal with inability to secure the border?
Is it the money issue? Or a lack of political incentive, as Marat said?

[Лина]

No one could get in
-----------------------------------------------------------------
well, there was that kid who landed his plane near the Red Square... other than him, I'm guessing that keeping people out wasn't a major problem.

[Лина]

The problem for the longest time has been of both republican anddemocrat making. They are both equally culpable - republicans wantcheap labor and democrats (pushing for amnesty) want permanent Hispanicvoting majority.
Oh, ye, one more thing - it will never happen!!!! - not until we vote these bums out and replace them with people with common sense and the balls to implement it.
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just a few questions: who exactly are these bums that we're voting out and where do we find these sensible, ballsy replacements?

[Алексей Пэтк]

That kid was tracked by air defense radars all the way from the point he crossed border -- no one could order to shoot him down (as it was clearly a civilian aircraft) and no really "big bosses" were available to give that order...

[Алексей Пэтк]

PS. if someone doesn't like the AZ law, they are free not to travel there.. but if people of AZ has decided this is the measure they have to take it, it's their right to protect themselves (the latest poll show 70% support)..
Yes, I will not travel to Arizona and advice my frineds not to do so as well. I did not come to this country to be a second-class citizen just because I don't have southern accent.
P.S. Natan, I agree with all of your points, except for the very last one. I don't believe that Republicans have political will to change the situation -- there was no immigration reform during 8 years of Bush administration.
P.P.S. I believe that border security is a national security issue -- and if they want to build the wall, they should do so. At least they should hire many-many more Park Rangers (or whoever patrols that border).

[Алексей Пэтк]

even so, I don't see it as a problem at all.. if you have documents, you would have to carry them with you (passport, visa, green card)..
Yes -- and that would get us closer to that totalitarian regime that you are talking about. How can you not see the infringement on your civil liberties here???

[Светлана Гэмм]

Common civil liberties include the rights of people, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, and additionally, the right to due process, to a trial, to own property, and to privacy.
nope, I don't see a conflict with my civil liberties.. if someone is suspected in breaking a law, the law enforcement has a duty to act on it.. how do you think the federal government would enforce it?? *-)

[Лина]

if someone is suspected in breaking a law, the law enforcement has a duty to act on it..
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what exactly will this suspicion be based on?

[Алексей Пэт]

How about the right to a due process? Are you Ok with police entering your home w/out a warrant? How about arresting you on the account that you have an accent? ;-)
I think the right approach would be to (1) separate the issues of immigration and border security (2) eliminate the reason for illegals to stay in the US -- jobs that hire illegal immigrants.

[Мария]

Липовые аргументы против нового закона... *
Слышала по радио сегодня Обамку с глупейшей тирадой, типа " You just want to go out with your kid for some ice cream, and if you don't have documents with you you will be harassed". *Ну маразм просто, стыдно слушать такой бред. *У Обамки уже совсем совести нет, такую ахинею несёт ...

[Лина]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
At common law, a police officer could arrest an individual if that individual committed a misdemeanor in the officer's presence or if the officer had probable cause to believe that the individual was committing a felony. For misdemeanors, probable cause to believe that a wrongdoer committed a misdemeanor is not sufficient for an arrest; the police officer has to actually witness the misdemeanor.

[Светлана Гэмм]

How about the right to a due process? Are you Ok with police entering your home w/out a warrant? How about arresting you on the account that you have an accent?
first, do you really think the police is stupid enough to start questioning someone just because they have an accent?? have you seen illegals in real life?? they don't look, act like people who live here legally at all, even when compared to the new immigrants.. and like I said early - no one will be harmed if they are asked to provide proof of their immigration status.. just like you are required to provide many other documents.. when I first came here and it was not in Arizona, I was told to carry my immigration papers with me.. and that's you are expected to do even when you have your green card.. legal aliens are courteously allowed to live in this country and they should respect the laws of this land and help protect them..

[Мария]

Here is the article by Byron York about the new Arizona law. He writes about all the hysteria in the media and among Democrats and illegals about the law, but nobody actually read it.:-)
********tinyurl.com/2bkzrjv

[Лина]

have you seen illegals in real life?? they don't look, act like peoplewho live here legally at all, even when compared to the newimmigrants..
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really? how are they different?
legal aliens are courteously allowed to live in this country and theyshould respect the laws of this land and help protect them..
------------------------------------------------------------
why just the legal aliens and how will the police be able to differentiate between them and the naturalized citizens? I know you think they look different, but honestly, all otb's (no offense) look and sound the same.
respect and help protect the unconstitutional laws?

[Лина]

that article obviously relies on people's ignorance of the law or just plain ignorance.

[Алексей Пэтк]

first, do you really think the police is stupid enough to start questioning someone just because they have an accent??
Yes.
have you seen illegals in real life?? they don't look, act like people who live here legally at all, even when compared to the new immigrants..
The ones I saw (who I knew would be an illegal alien soon) looked exactly like other people -- and even spoke Russian. I don't know if people I meet on the street (or in the ethnic food stores) are legal or illegal -- I do not check their federal documents. :-)
legal aliens are courteously allowed to live in this country and they should respect the laws of this land and help protect them..
But I'm a citizen of this country and expect everybody -- including law enforcement -- to respect my rights and individual freedom. If I don't want to carry my passport while I'm walking my dog in the park -- I don't have to.

[Лина]

Section 2, Paragraph B: "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

for the millionth time, reasonable suspicion based on what?

[Лина]

From Maria's article:
"Still, critics worry the law would force some people to carry their papers, just like in an old movie. The fact is, since the 1940s, federal law has required non-citizens in this country to carry, on their person, the documentation proving they are here legally -- green card, work visa, etc. That hasn't changed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
no, that hasn't changed at all, except that now we'll all have to.

[Светлана Гэмм]

But I'm a citizen of this country and expect everybody -- including law enforcement -- to respect my rights and individual freedom. If I don't want to carry my passport while I'm walking my dog in the park -- I don't have to.
if you pick up after your dog, no one will have to a reason to ask you for your passport.. you still failed to mention which rights of yours would be violated.. I am sure you don't like to show your car registration if you are stopped.. too bad... but just like the police and the FBI were after Italians when they were fighting organized crime years ago, they would be after certain people now.. safety of innocent people is more important than your inconvenience..

[Алексей Пэтк]

I don't think this is correct, as according to that Arizona law if

reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States
I can be asked to show my immigration papers. A reasonable suspicion can arise if a police officer overhears me calling "Молодец, Полкаша!"

[Алексей Пэтк]

safety of innocent people is more important than your inconvenience..
So I see that you agree with the policy of putting Americans of Japanese origin into concentration camps during the second World War...
Anyway, I think I fundamentally disagree with you on that one, because it this logic leads to suppression of my individual freedoms given to me by my Constitution -- and US turning into USSR.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Anyway, I think I fundamentally disagree with you on that one, because it this logic leads to suppression of my individual freedoms given to me by my Constitution -- and US turning into USSR.
again, which right would it be??
Why the Soviet Union?.. Mexico is very harsh with their illegal immigrants from Central America, as well as other countries..
You have to admit - you are against the police enforcing it because you don't see anything wrong with people coming here illegally, right?? Well, this is where the Arizonians and you disagree.. they are fed up with illegal immigration to the point where it hurts them..

[Натан Мэвэ]

"Natan, I agree with all of your points, except for the very last one. I don't believe that Republicans have political will to change the situation -- there was no immigration reform during 8 years of Bush administration."
Алексей,
Conservatives, like myself, do not care if the people in Congress as listed with an "R" or "D" next to their names. I already said that the problem was created by both Republicans and Democrats.
We will vote for and hopefully elect those who espouse conservative values including responsible LIMITED Federal government which DOES the things it is MANDATED to do by the Constitution - that included foremost protection of the borders, and, more importantly, the Federal government that DOES NOT DO things that are not in its jurisdiction and should be handled by states and localities.
People are gradually waking up. There are millions of us and in November in Washington we will be heard.

[Натан Мэвэ]

So far the only argument objecting to the new AZ law basically can be boiled down to the following: "This law has a potential for abuse by the law enforcement agencies".
I have news for you, folks. ANY law has a potential for abuse. You've got to come up with better/newer arguments.....
The AZ law has succeeded already by putting this issue in front of the American people - front and center, as a prime example of the Federal government's complete and total abdication of its lawful responsibilities.

[Алексей Пэт]

Svetlana, my right to a due process and my constitutional protection against unreasonable searches.
You have to admit - you are against the police enforcing it because you don't see anything wrong with people coming here illegally, right??
Please don't second-guess my opinion on that issue. As a person who went through all of the legal and due process of immigration, I see a lot of wrong with people coming here -- and saying here -- illegally. I don't have an issue with improving border security -- I will support building a wall there if needed, because I believe that it is a national security issue. I would support doubling or tripling the budget for border protection, if needed. I believe that illegals should be immediately deported -- and if they want to appeal their deportation, they should do that from their country.
I DO have a problem with a law that introduces different casts of CITIZENS and brings my country closer to a police state.

[Светлана Гэмм]

one of us doesn't understand the meaning of the due process..
to put it more simply, where an individual is facing a (1) deprivation of (2) life, liberty, or property, (3) procedural due process mandates that he or she is entitled to adequate notice, a hearing, and a neutral judge.
How is anyone's due processed being violated with this law?? If you can prove your legal immigration status you will not be detained.. if police were not allowed to question anyone, they wouldn't b e able to prosecute the majority of the criminal activities..
do you have a problem with the law enforcement monitoring certain groups and places like muslim extremists and mosques to get clues of the impending attacks too??

[Алексей Пэтк]

Svetlana, there is such a thing called a "warrant". Law enforcement can do whatever they want if they obtain a warrant from a judge to do so. This is constitutionally-anchored separation of powers.

[Светлана Гэмм]

In most jurisdictions, an arrest warrant is required for misdemeanors that do not occur within view of a police officer. However, as long as police have the necessary probable cause, a warrant is usually not needed to arrest someone suspected of a felony.
let's say the police spots a van full of people or a house.. since the majority of legal residents don't drive in overcrowded vans or on top of the pick-ups, don't live in over-crowded houses, there is a resonable suspicion to believe those people have broken the federal law and are staying in the country illegally.. if it's not so, they will not be detained or arrested..

[Mike]

the police has too much discretion to begin with..
i am sure they have better things to do besides chasing after the illegals who have done nothing wrong besides jumping the fence.
all that it's going to create is some added costs and 0 benefit.

[Светлана Гэмм]

that's the problem.. they believe the illegals have been contributing to crime in Arizona (drugs, gangs, violence, transpassing of the private property, robberies), and they haven't been able to do anything about it up till now..I think it's a good start..
and jumping the fence IS a crime.. people who respect the rule of law wouldn't jump over the fence.. we don't need those who don't respect our laws..

[Зоя Зося]

У нас был знакомый, который жил в Аризоне, недалеко от границы. Жизнь в их городке из-за постоянно мигрирующих через их земли нелегалов превратилась просто в кошмар. Представьте толпы голодного и страдающего от жажды-а от этого теряющего всякий контроль над собой- народа еженощно! проходящего по вашей проперти. Мало того что они не дают покоя ночью, ломают заборы. Они воруют всё подряд, гадят, мусорят, реально угрожают жизни и здоровью местного населения, которое пытается защитить свою собственность и драгоценную там воду. И которое без оружия уже давно не живёт. Им даже приходится отстреливаться (в воздух) от нападающих нелегалов. Там давно уже своя милиция, сами охраняют, сами (подозреваю) наказывают... И так живут они уже десятки лет пытаясь привлечь внимание гос. органов к государственной, вобщем-то, проблеме. Такие вот кошмарики.

[Олег Сах]

Хорошо, в свете зоиного поста. Мне кто нибудь объяснит почему не построена стена или граница не держится на замке в стиле Карацупы? Я догадываюсь что не вся советская граница была пропахана и держалась на под контролем так строго как нам рассказывали в школе, но почему мы не можем стеречь границу чуть-чуть получше?

[Зоя Зося]

Конечно, можно потратить деньги на построение Великой Мексиканской Стены или поставить по овчарке с пограничником через каждые 10 метров... Но я бы лучше потратила их на пару дополнительных блок-постов, через которые пропускали бы жаждущих мексиканцев сюда, выдавая им временные разрешения на работу, тем самым регистрируя их. Люди сюда лезут (в прямом смысле, в данном случае) за работой, за заработком. Если они смогут найти её, то официально будут наняты и будут вынуждены налоги платить в нашу госказну. Это нашим работодателям невыгодно-им нелегалов дешевле нанять и проще штраф заплатить в случае поимки. (tr)

[Леонид]

— The Mexican government will bar foreigners if they upset “the equilibrium of the national demographics.” How’s that for racial and ethnic profiling?

— If outsiders do not enhance the country’s “economic or national interests” or are “not found to be physically or mentally healthy,” they are not welcome. Neither are those who show “contempt against national sovereignty or security.” They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.

[Леонид]

How Mexico treats illegal immigrants....
— Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years’ imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years’ imprisonment.

[Dima Mov]

Хорошо, в свете зоиного поста. Мне кто нибудь объяснит почему не построена стена или граница не держится на замке в стиле Карацупы?
*****************
проблема мексиканской границы лежит в Вашингтоне.......... Обаме и демократам нужны голоса нелегалов на выборах...
поэтому границу не усиливают а ослабевают перебрасываю пограничный патруль с мексиканской границы на канадскую... одновременно Обама будет стараться провести эмиграционную реформу... Обаме наплевать на безопасность и простых американцев.... он переживает за нелегалов или преступников попросту говоря...

[Лина]

Обаме и демократам нужны голоса нелегалов на выборах...
---------------------------------------------------------------
don't you need to be a citizen to vote?

[Леонид]

Lina. do you need to show your proof of citizenship to vote? did someone actually ask?

[Лина]

oh, and as for the Soviet border, my dad (bivshij pogranichnik :-) ), said the security was actually pretty tight. the only ones that attempted and successfully made it across, were the soldiers.

[Олег Сах]

Yeah, those were the borders with super tight security, I doubt that Mongolian or Chinese borders were that well guarded.

[Натан Мэвэ]

"Дима, а почему Буш не построил стену за 8 лет? Тоже демократам угождал?"
Олег, я писал об этом нескольким и страницами ранее - Вчера 03:47
Демократам нужны мексиканские голоса, а республиканцам - мексиканская дешёвая рабочая сила. И те и другие одинаково виноваты. (N) (N) (N) (N)

[Сергей]

Часто *читаю и смотрю новости и комментарии к ним на русскоязычных сайтах (два профайла открытых мною за неделю были заблокированны, т.к. понятное дело гадости можно писать только об американцах и евреях, такие форумчане ни разу заблокированны не были). С интересом наблюдал за реакцией на продление контракта для российской военной базы в Севастополе. То, что Бандюкович прогнётся в интересной позе под кремль, можно было даже не сомневаться. Форум ликует, как снова американцы "получили пощёчину" и какие русские самые-пресамые. Вашингтон и НАТО спокойно заявило, что не видит никаких проблем с этим контрактом. Форумы естественно позлорадствовали, что мол ничего сделать не могут, потому и делают "хорошую мину при плохой игре". Сначала, по поводу продления контракта, я ничего кроме брезгливого презрения к Яныку не испытывал. Потом проанализировав с точки зрения постороннего наблюдателя (к Украине ни каким боком не относящимся), пришёл к мнению, что это в принципе хорошо!

[Сергей]

Что получила Россия в результате этого договора? Ещё одну огромную статью расходов на абсолютно бесполезный флот и *предоставленную жирную скидку на газ покрываемую из бюджетных денег. *Украина получила ту самую скидку за счёт России, $100 000 000 ежегодных выплат за присутствие этой рухляди громко именуемой флотом, где единственная под. лодка приварена к пирсу, потому что не в состоянии даже держаться на плаву самостоятельно не то, что выйти в открытое море, и жалкой горстки устаревших кораблей в закрытом Чёрном море не имеющего выходов никуда, кроме Босфора, работа для 15 000 севастопольцев (хотя за то скотское отношение *к американскому кораблю которое было устроено там путиноидами в 2008м , я бы не стал сильно беспокоится, если бы они все остались без работы, надеюсь только на то что, не одни гоблины живут в этом городе). Не такой плохой гешефт для Украины. Гордость правда можно засунуть себе в одно место, но во всём остальном-полный ажур! Россия опять выкинула деньги на ветер.

[Сергей]

Путин правда при этом сделал довольно хитрый финт ушами. Раскритиковал высокую стоимость нахождения этой груды металлолома на Украине. Без его ведома яТогда Вовансен пень такой контракт заключён не был бы. Контракт для России разорительный и это само собою очень скоро всплывёт. *Тогда Вован разведёт руками в стороны с видом пророка Моисея и скаже, ну вот дорогие Россияне, не говорил ли я вам??? И как всегда будет слава великому Пу за его мудрость и все его Ку!

[Алексей Пэт]

Sergei, they are planning to put three new destroyers there plus that French-made Mistral ship... and that makes Georgia nervous.

[Сергей]

That's all they can do, to make small country like Georgia to be nerves. Also, to plan and to do in Russia it's not necessarily the same thing;-)

[Мария]

I DO have a problem with a law that introduces different casts of CITIZENS and brings my country closer to a police state.
Different casts of citizens? :-O Are you talking about the illegal immigrants? Or who do you call CITIZENS?

[Мария]

Я из Крыма родом... *Там мнения разделились... *Про-русские очень рады, что гордость Российская -Севастополь -остаётся российским. *И флот, который ещё до Советских времён создали, остаётся русским.
Украинцы же жаждут скинуть проффесора...
Хотя рассуждения Сергея разумные -Украине хоть с энергией полегчает

[Натан Мэвэ]

"they are planning to put three new destroyers there plus that French-made Mistral ship..."
Алексей, на какие шиши???
Я в группе "Политкультура" пытался объяснить россиянам, что для Украины эта сделка намного выгоднее, чем для России, но кроме лозунгов советского времени типа "Севастополь будет русским" или "Российскиой флот будет на Чёрном море всегда", ничего вразумительного в ответ не ответил.
Правда была высказана одна интересная гипотеза, что в России знают, что у Украины всё равно нет денег платить за газ рыночную цену, а это снова закончится перекрытием газа следующей зимой и очередным скандалом с Европой. Поэтому так называемая "скидка" в $100М вовсе не скидка, а неизбежная потеря, за которую Россия получила хоть в/м базу в Крыму.
Может быть в этой теории есть какой-то резон.

[Олег Сах]

Я думаю что теория, о которой пишет Натан, самая вероятная. Прэзытэнт выставлен в самом лучшем виде: да, я про-московский, ну и что? Смотрите каких пряников я привез вам из столицы. Для Москвы, мне кажется важен только один фактор, пока ЧФ находится в Украине, о НАТО не может быть и речи.

[Алексей Пэтк]

Different casts of citizens? :-O Are you talking about the illegal immigrants? Or who do you call CITIZENS?
Maria, I'm obviously talking about of citizens who were born in the 50 states of United States of America or its territories and LEGAL immigrants, who received US citizenship via naturalization process after being admitted to the United States as lawful permanent residents. Should I be more specific that that? (sc)

[Светлана Гэмм]

someone obviously refuses to understand the law the way it's written - just like now, in the future a police officer CANNOT approach/stop/come in contact with anyone based on race or any other factor..unless there is a violation of some sort - only then a police officer can engage in a lawful contact with citizens..

[Алексей Пэтк]

No, I think someone refuses to understand the opposite -- that the law clearly states that the only thing that is needed is "reasonable suspicion", NOT other violation.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I found those two "explanations" of the lawful contact and resonable suspision that people seem to be confused about.. and that the officers have to be compliant with the federal immigration laws that already exist..
No, lawful contact does not mean just because you're talking to a cop he can ask you to prove your a legal resident. Profiling is illegal. Period.
There is so much hyperbole and histrionics surrounding this bill and false information it's not even funny any more.
Since profiling is illegal, lawful contact requires an activity. There is going to have to be some type of activity that will lead to a reasonable suspicion the person is in the country illegally. If that activity leads to the reasonable suspicion, the police officer has the means to determine whether you are a legal resident.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Police officers are not going to be walking down the street asking people for papers. If you call the police to report a crime, they are not going to request you to prove legal status due to that. (Calling in a crime does not give them reasonable suspicion you're an illegal alien).The Arizona Immigration Law copies federal code already in place and moves it to the state level to allow police the ability to detain, arrest and try transfer illegal aliens or to transfer to ICE. There is nothing "new" in the law, other than it's at a state level now.
if you are stopped for speeding and can't produce your driver's license, then there is a reasonable suspicion that you are here illegally.. but you CANNOT be stopped just to check if you have papers..

[Светлана Гэмм]

Apparently, too many of the bill's opponents don't understand the legal meaning of "lawful contact."
What is lost in the heat of this debate is the word "reasonable." And no, I'm not referring here to the other hot-button phrase in the bill, "reasonable suspicion," but rather, to a general legal concept applicable to virtually all law enforcement activity.
Let's take this part of the question above: "the officer thought you were parked illegally (even if you weren't)"

[Светлана Гэмм]

In every case, an officer's actions must be reasonable, meaning other reasonable people in similar circumstances would draw a similar inference. A police officer cannot simply say I "thought" that car was parked illegally; he or she must describe observations that would lead a reasonable person to believe the car was parked illegally.
Another clause missed by most of the bill's opponents is this, the second-to-last sentence of the act: "This act shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and respecting the privileges and immunities of United States citizens."
Let me repeat the key phrase: "protecting the civil rights of all persons...." Please bear that in mind when debating the relative merits of this bill.

[Dima Mov]

Демонстрация 25 го апреля с/г в поддержку Израиля против политики Обамы
Видио с выступающими на митинге..........
***********.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137223

[Лина]

someone obviously refuses to understand the law the way it's written -just like now, in the future a police officer CANNOT approach/stop/comein contact with anyone based on race or any other factor..unless thereis a violation of some sort - only then a police officer can engage ina lawful contact with citizens..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
no, the only one who refuses (or maybe just incapable) to understand, is you. as far as I can tell, there is no legal definition of "lawful contact". why do you think that specific term was chosen? the Arizona immigration law was designed to be intentionally ambiguous. absent a legal definition, "lawful contact" will be open to interpretation, and will mean whatever the police officer wants and needs it to mean.

[Мария]

Maria, I'm obviously talking about of citizens who were born in the 50states of United States of America
Well, than what is the bid worry that an illegal person , who violated some law ( traffic law, gas station robbery, mugging on the street, human trafficking) is being question by the police about his immigration status? That person would have been arrested anyway, even if the Arizona law would not exist, but now the police has a right to determine this criminal's legal status.
That's what the law is about. It specifically forbids racial profiling.
Demagogues on the left, starting with our community agitator-in-chief, are exploiting the fear that the police will abuse their powers.
It police abuses power-each policemen will be tried in court.
Period.
Leftists are fear mongering and playing the race card! It's despicable! (N) (N) (N)

[Лина]

Well, than what is the bid worry that an illegal person , who violated some law( traffic law, gas station robbery, mugging on the street, humantrafficking) is being question by the police about his immigrationstatus?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
is that what the law actually says? I'm not asking what you think or hope it means, I'm asking for a legal definition of "lawful contact".

[Алексей Пэтк]

Well, than what is the bid worry that an illegal person , who violated some law...
Once again, my only worry is that some naturalized citizen (such as myself, for example) will be required to carry his/her federal identification papers (such as passport) because he/she has an accent. And therefore, when asking a cop in Arizona about how to get to a museum, will be asked to provide proof of his/her citizenship -- as, due to clear foreign accent, the above-said policeman will get reasonably suspicious about his/her immigration status.
While his/her friend, who is born here and has no accept will not be asked to do so. Therefore, a two-cast system of citizens is created.
Do I need to provide a simpler explanation or that would be sufficient?

[Светлана Гэмм]

There are three relevant gradations of contact between a police officer and a person: non-custodial, brief detention, and arrest. The non-custodial context refers generally to any incidental interaction between a police officer and an individual — including those initiated by the individual. A police officer does not need suspicion in order to ask a person a question, but the person is not required to answer and the officer has no lawful authority to detain a person, even fleetingly, absent "reasonable suspicion."

[Светлана Гэмм]

Brief detentions are known in the law as "Terry stops" — thanks to the famous Supreme Court case of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Under Terry, a police officer may only detain a person if the officer has reasonable, articulable suspicion of criminal activity. This standard is not met by a hunch or a generalized suspicion — a cop who says to himself, "Those look like Mexicans, they must be up to no good," does not make the grade. Instead, the officer must be able to articulate specific facts which, together with the logical inference to be drawn from those facts, reasonably suggest that criminal activity has occurred or is imminent. Courts are deferential to the judgment of police officers — the standard is not what any person would think of the facts observed but what an experienced cop acting reasonably and responsibly would think. But there must be specific, describable indicia of criminal activity.

[Светлана Гэмм]

So the Arizona immigration law does not allow the police officer to have contact with the person unless the contact is lawful. This means if even the briefest detention is involved, the police officer must have reasonable suspicion that some crime has been or is being committed. Absent that, the officer is not permitted to stop the person.
Now, why do I say the Arizona law is more restrictive of police than is federal law? Well, the Supreme Court has held that one common rationale for a permissible Terry stop is to ascertain the identity of the person who is detained. That is, federal law would probably permit an inquiry into citizenship as a part of establishing who the detainee is — again, as long as the officer had a good reason for detaining the person in the first place.

********corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGZjZmY3OThiZWJkYTNiMDI4NzM4MGZiOTNhOTMzMzU=

[Лина]

That person would have been arrested anyway, even if the Arizona lawwould not exist, but now the police has a right to determine thiscriminal's legal status.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
a right they didn' previously have? considering that there's a New Jersey directive that actually requires (not permits) the local police to inquire about immigration status after they've arrested an individual for an indictable offense or for driving while intoxicated, I find it difficult to believe that a similar law doesn't exist in Arizona.

[Лина]

So the Arizona immigration law does not allow the police officer to have contact with the person unless the contact is lawful.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
what is the legal definition of lawful contact???

[Светлана Гэмм]

READ THE FREAKEN ARTICLE!! so tired of parrots..(sr) I just copied and pasted all the definitions of legal and not..and here we go again..(hu)

[Лина]

I read the article, he states his opinion, not the legal definition of the term. why use ambiguous language, rather than universally recognized legal terminology?

[Светлана Гэмм]

it's not an opinion, it's the rules and the laws under which police officers operate.. the lawful contact, for any reasonable person , means a contact permissible under the law (a law that allows a police officer to detain or arrest a person).. it doesn't need to be specified in every single law..

[Лина]

it's a term that was intentionally used in a legal document to create ambiguity. how do you not get that? from what I can tell, it does not exist in any legal dictionary. how will anyone be able to contest something that has yet to be defined?

[Мария]

The only advice to Alexei is NOT to travel to Arizona museums
And don't go to the libraries there either. It's a criminal activity in Arizona, as well as going out with your kid for some ice cream.

(H)

[Мария]

The same applies to Lina -an appearance of a snowflake in the midst of Arizona deserts -can provoke a lawful contact. Beware!

[Лина]

t's the rules and the laws under which police officers operate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
show me those rules and laws. show me something similar to what exists in New Jersey.

[Мария]

Oh, and don't forget to boycott Arizona Ice Tea. It's a double offense for liberals -Arizona and Tea ( think of a Tea Party) in one phrase!)

[Светлана Гэмм]

speaking of ambiguity - it's from people who gave us the healthcare reform.. US - US citizens, not illegal immigrants.. :-@

[Светлана Гэмм]

read this..maybe it will help..
***********.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/cornell-law-review/upload/Weiss-2.pdf

[Светлана Гэмм]

why?? you can't read such a lengthy explanation or afraid won't be able to admit there is nothing wrong with the law?? (H)
I know it's both..(ch)
lawful contact - a contact that's legal, constitutional, permitted under the current law.. which part of "lawful" you do not understand?? *-)

[Лина]

Indeed, it is this distinction that the Minnesota
Court of Appeals relied on to adopt a per se rule prohibiting all investigative vehicle stops for past misdemeanor offenses. In so holding, the court reasoned that the aggregate governmental interests that such stops would promote did not outweigh the severe interference with personal liberty that such stops implicate. This court was correct: the governmental interests in solving crimes and bringing offenders to justice that justified the Court’s extension of Terry in the Hensley decision do not support the further extension of Terry to stops for completed misdemeanors. Misdemeanors are, by definition, less serious offenses than felonies, and the public interest in bringing such offenders to justice is not high enough to outweigh the strong privacy interests implicated by Terry stops.

[Лина]

lawful contact - a contact that's legal, constitutional, permittedunder the current law.. which part of "lawful" you do not understand??
----------------------------------------------------------
are you an idiot or just pretending? take a look at a legal dictionary. I understand lawful and contact, but lawful contact is a new legal term that is yet to be defined by the courts.

[Светлана Гэмм]

here - I found a less complex site for you..
********lawforcops.com/contactnotes.htm

[Лина]

have you ever taken a law class? the previous quote was taken from the cornell article that you posted. did you bother reading it? can you repeat it in your own words?

[Лина]

Lawforcops.com is a website devoted to educating police officers in Missouri and Kansas

[Лина]

PURPOSE: This directive establishes policy and sets forth guidance for conducting “voluntary contacts” and “investigative stops” by U.S. Mint Police
officers.
2. SCOPE: This directive applies to all U.S. Mint Police.


how is this relevant?

[Светлана Гэмм]

then google the one for Arizona.. we still have one constitution, you know..;-)

[Лина]

The first legal challenge to SB1070, the controversial new Arizona law designed to deal with the illegal immigrant issue, has been filed in federal court in Tucson by a Tucson police officer.

Martin Escobar argues in his complaint that, in his experience, there is no way "race neutral" criteria can be utilized to determine if someone he encounters in his daily routine is in this country illegally. The new law requires officers to determine the status of anyone they come into "lawful" contact with during their day.

Escobar argues SB1070 is the product of "racial bias aimed specifically at Hispanics, is unlawful, results in impermissible deprivations of rights guaranteed by the United States Constitution."
He argues the new law violates six components of the federal constitution.

[Мария]

LIna, you should try to live somewhere next to the border. Maybe then your passion for protecting illegals will subside.

[Лина]

Maria, what in my posts indicated that it's the illegals that I'm trying to protect?

[Светлана Гэмм]

Маша, she doesn't protect the illegals.. she just repeats what the Democratic Underground says..(ch)
finally a great article by the NYT..(Y) (Y) they have to tell the truth sometimes..;-)
***********.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html

[Лина]

sorry to disappoint you, but unlike some here, I possess the ability to think for myself.

[Лина]

finally a great article by the NYT
------------------------------------------------------
article by the NYT? it's an op-ed piece - can't you tell the difference?

[Лина]

and the only thing I'm protecting is the Fourth Amendment and the rights it affords me.

[Мария]

If you are a good girl, nobody will stop and search you in Arizona. But still, to be on the safe side -do not travel to Arizona!(H)

[Мария]

Sveta, great article in NYT!(Y) Really explains all the facts and rebutts all the smears. Even that fish wrap HAS to print truthful information sometimes (but only after several days of misguiding readers).

[Алексей Пэтк]

Those suckers in Arizona finally buckled! The threat of grass-root economic sanctions worked! I'm fine with the law now.
********tinyurl.com/2vx5dgt

[Мария]

Дык это с самого начала было понятно.:-)

Мне понравилось, как Алексей назвал 'grass roots' хулиганов, которые рисуют свастики на окнах и оскорбляют *и аттакуют полицейских на своих lзлобных рассистких демонстрациях протеста.


Выдержка из нижеприведённой статьи:

"Illegal is illegal," Arizona state Sen. Russell Pearce, thecontroversial statute's primary sponsor, told CNN Friday. "Illegal'snot a race, it's a crime. ... And in Arizona, we're going to enforce"the law.
Pearce accused President Barack Obama, a critic of themeasure, of "aiding and abetting criminal activity, inciting criminalactivity, inciting violence, and [violating his] oath of office tosecure this border, enforce these laws and defend the American people."

Так его *- позорный подстрекатель президентишко. (N)

[Лина]

Так его *- позорный подстрекатель президентишко.
------------------------------------------------------------
A kuda zhe Bush smotrel 8 let? Vse-taki Obama nemnogo zanyat (cleaning up GW's mess), a Bush tol'ko i znal kak na vacation exat'.

[Лина]

If you are a good girl, nobody will stop and search you in Arizona. But still, to be on the safe side -do not travel to Arizona!
------------------------------------------------------------------
what about sobriety checkpoints, being a victim of or a witness to a crime...? if you get mugged or worse in Arizona, you better steer clear of the police, as they might actually be more concerned with your thick Russian accent than looking for the purse snatcher.

[Лина]

The changes to the law are not sufficient and will do little to positively affect daily law enforcement in Arizona, argued Clarissa Martinez De Castro of the National Council of La Raza, a major Latino civil rights organization.
"Even right now, without this law, we know that the practice on the streets is different," she told CNN. "The [current] practice doesn't reflect what the law is. And if the governor is saying that racial profiling is not going to be tolerated, why has it been tolerated so far?"

[Светлана Гэмм]

The threat of grass-root economic sanctions worked!
this sounds funny..:-)
Because San Francisco’s political leaders view federal immigration law as “discriminatory,” they have decided to punish the state of Arizona for its failure to succeed in providing “sanctuary” to the millions crossing its borders from Mexico, including warring drug thugs who have taken over entire neighborhoods and turned Arizona into a world kidnapping capital.
Fox News is reporting that Mayor Gavin Newsom has already banned city workers from all non-essential travel to Arizona, and San Francisco’s Board of Supervisors are planning to boycott Arizona economically. Others want to cancel collegiate and professional sports events, like the Superbowl.

[Светлана Гэмм]

One question remains: Will San Francisco be willing to pay the price for its self-appointed claim on moral superiority? In one case, according to city spokeman, Tony Winnicker, if San Francisco cancels its business with an Arizona company that helps them run the city’s Jobs Now program, “we could be looking at a situation where 2,500 San Franciscans would lose their jobs.”What? San Francisco workers could lose jobs in their attempt to kill the jobs of people in Arizona?
And what would happen if Arizona retaliated? As one San Francisco restauranteur confessed

[Натан Мэвэ]

I would argue that state of Arizona should augment its recently passed law with the following article:
Any person detained by AZ law enforcement agents and is determined to be an undocumented alien and thus subject to deportation, shall have a choice of either being deported to the country of their origin OR receiving a free one way Greyhound bus ticket to the fare Californian city of San Francisco.
Problem solved.....

[Светлана Гэмм]

мне нравится такое предложение :-D (Y) , но не все там Ньюсоны..(tr) Маша там все таки тоже живет..:-)

[Алексей Пэтк]

Мне понравилось, как Алексей назвал 'grass roots' хулиганов, которые рисуют свастики на окнах и оскорбляют *и аттакуют полицейских на своих lзлобных рассистких демонстрациях протеста.
Мария. Хотя вы уже показали себя нечистоплотным человеком, этот пост переходит всяческие границы. Обвинять меня в поддержке фашистов - это просто свинство с вашей стороны. Прийти к такому выводу после прочтения моего поста может только клинически слабоумный человек. Я даже не буду требовать ваших извинений - вы мне просто неприятны. Я не желаю находиться с вами в одной группе.
Может быть, когда вы станете гражданкой США (и узнаете что место рождения пишется в паспорте), вы научитесь прислушиваться к мнениям других. Хотя вряд-ли...
Олег, Натан, Светлана, Гера и другие *-- было приятно вести с Вами цивилизованную дискуссию. Я многому от Вас научился. Благодарю за компанию.

[Khramaya]

well, this what happens when reasonable and extremist styles clash in discussions.

[Khramaya]

well, this what happens when reasonable and extremist styles clash in discussions.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Мария. Хотя вы уже показали себя нечистоплотным человеком, этот пост переходит всяческие границы. Обвинять меня в поддержке фашистов - это просто свинство с вашей стороны. Прийти к такому выводу после прочтения моего поста может только клинически слабоумный человек. Я даже не буду требовать ваших извинений - вы мне просто неприятны. Я не желаю находиться с вами в одной группе.
согласна - такое написать - это экстрим! (md)

[Khramaya]

нет, это просто пример как экстрим довел разум до ручки...
Да ладно..... эти все разговоры тут - как слепого с немым, все равно.

[Светлана Гэмм]

действительно - да ладно.. каждый свое бубнит.. где это Мария сказала, что Алексей поддерживает фашизм??? только сказала, что те, кого он назвал "grass root", ведут себя очень не пристойно..

[Лина]

Chitai vnimatel'no. Ona skazala, chto Aleksei schitaet "'grass roots' хулиганов, которые рисуют свастики на окнах и оскорбляют и аттакуют полицейских на своих lзлобных рассистких демонстрацияхпротеста." Chto ona etim xotela skazat' o nem i o ego mnenie?
Ya voobsche snachala podumala, chto ona svoix rodnix tea baggers opisivaet...

[Мария]

Мария. Хотя вы уже показали себя нечистоплотным человеком, этот постпереходит всяческие границы. Обвинять меня в поддержке фашистов - этопросто свинство с вашей стороны. Прийти к такому выводу после прочтениямоего поста может только клинически слабоумный человек. Я даже не будутребовать ваших извинений - вы мне просто неприятны. Я не желаюнаходиться с вами в одной группе.
Счастливого пути! *Очень жалко ваших студентов с школе -хорошо вы им там, ничего не подозревающим, *мозги полощете.
Извинения приносите мне за ваш исключительно оскорбительный, злобный и не по-мужски *истеричный *пост. :-| (N)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Теперь я точно помню почему не уважала большинство своих
профессоров в школе.. *это чувство превосходства, неуважения к другим, несдержанность.. фу, как противно..(tr) так и правильно говорят - образование это еще не наличие ума и интеллигентности..

[Мария]

Стыдно даже за "проффесора" как-то... *Тут очевидно какие-то Фрейдовские подсознательные *проэкции сработали... *Явно не адекватная реакция... *И главное -полное отсутствие чувства юмора... *Надеюсь *Алексей найдёт себе уютную группу под названием " Born without personalities".

[Khramaya]

what both of you - Maria and Svetlana wrote here, behind the person's back - in my opinion is very very low.:-( (N) I am sure you can't even comprehend the extend of academic accomplishments of the person you are ridiculing here.
Well, God be with you....
I am not sure what both of you do for a living, but I surely am glad you are not teaching political science:-D

[Светлана Гэмм]

Julia, you are free to send your friend all the posts I wrote about him.. if I wеre you, I wouldn't start talking about "talking behind someone's back".. you participate in groups where they do it on a regular basis.. the reason you are taking his side is because you don't agree with my or Maria's views.. if you think his reaction was appropriate to what Maria wrote, I think you should check with a psychiatrist as well.. and send a referral to your friend.. (ch)
I don't care about anyone's accomplishment here on-line.. в бане, как говорится, все равны.. :-)

[Лина]

Теперь я точно помню почему не уважала большинство своих
профессоров в школе.. *это чувство превосходства, неуважения к другим, несдержанность..
---------------------------------------------------------------
a mozhet iz za svoego chuvstva nepolnotzennosti ili zavisti?

[Мария]

Юля, не защищайте недостойного человека. *
Алексей *наложил кучу дерьма, и убрался восвояси. *Он знал, что на *его гадкую тираду я отвечу. *Так что он получил по заслугам. * Если у меня раньше была хоть капля уважения к нему, то после его наглого оскорбления оно полностью исчезло. *Его не за что уважать. (N)
Мой пост абсолютно не подразумевал приобщать Алексея к каким-то группам. *Его реакция была дикой и неадекватной. *Если он психопат, то ему надо лечиться, если нет -то ему надо уметь держать себя в руках. * Мужчина всё-таки ( судя по фотографии, хотя , кто его знает*-) ).

[Мария]

can't even comprehend the extend of academic accomplishments of the person you are ridiculing here.
He is ridiculing himself with his ridiculous statement. :-|
And, besides, academic accomplishment means nothing if that person is a jerk. He is an accomplished jerk. (v)

[Лина]

you participate in groups where they do it on a regular basis.. thereason you are taking his side is because you don't agree with my orMaria's views..
------------------------------------------------------------------
well if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black...
what you continuously fail to grasp is that it's not so much your views in and of themselves, but rather the manner in which you choose to express them, that people find most objectionable and offensive.

[Лина]

And, besides, academic accomplishment means nothing if that person is a jerk.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say that... and I would always choose an accomplished jerk over a jealous and resentful one.

[Зоя Зося]

Зря вы так на Юлию "наехали". Я её давно читаю по разным группам, и ни разу не видела, чтобы она за спиной кого-то грязью поливала.... *-) *За что я её очень уважаю.
<<you participate in groups where they do it on a regular basis..>>-а как вы к такому выводу пришли? значит тоже состоите в тех "нехороших" группах?.. ;-) *вопрос можно считать риторическим, отвечать необязательно......влезла я тут в ваш mud wrestling, *не сдержалась...:-S :-S

[Светлана Гэмм]

Зоя (F) , но с Юлией понятно.. а не хотели бы нам предложить свое мнение на то, что написал Алексий, раз мы уже тут мнениями обмениваемся, хотя и не по теме?

[Лина]

what exactly do you find so objectionable about his post? you've said worse without any provocation whatsoever.

[Зоя Зося]

Светлана, я тоже за спиной стараюсь не сплетничать, как бы мне ни хотелось иногда.....

[Светлана Гэмм]

понимаю (v) .. но весь этот "наезд", как Вы назвали, именно с того поста и начался.. и если человек такой психический выпад другого валит на кого-то другого (только потому, что с этим другим не согласна), то такого человека объективной я назвать не могу.. а Вы - как сами понимаете.. :-) (D)

[Олег Сах]

Пишу в качестве модератора. Я был очень рад когда Юлия Стайн и Алексей Петров приняли мои приглашения и присоединились к нашей группе. Несмотря на то что эта группа всегда считалась право-консервативно-республиканской, по ассоциации с полит. позициями обоих модераторов, я всегда был рад общаться с людьми из другого лагеря, обосновывающими свою позицию. Очень часто я начинал видеть новости по новому, прочитав их посты. Я не люблю однобокого или навязанного кем-то другим подхода, и стараюсь формировать свое мнение базируясь на разных точках зрения.
И в том, и в другом лагере полно роботов-репродукторов, повторяющих одно и тоже, день изо дня. Надеюсь что не принадлежу к таким же. Не причисляю также к таким людям ни Машу, ни Свету (yes, it is brown) ни Алексея, ни Юлию. Мне жаль, что нормальная живая атмосфера спора, царившая здесь в течение полугода, заменилась оскорблениями и непониманием.

[Лина]

и если человек такой психический выпад другого валит на кого-то другого
------------------------------------------------------------------
opyat', gde ti uvidla psixicheskij vipad, i kto na tebya chto valil? ona prosto skazala, chto ne krasivo obsuzhdat' cheloveka za glazami, a ti ee za eto k psixiatru poslala.

[Mike]

I just read the thread.. and i am not even sure why Alexey freaked out...
which post offended him??

[Мария]

Во-первых давайте называть вещи своими именами для начала. *Никто *никого "за глаза" или "за спиной" не обсуждал. *Это открытый форум, где все могут высказыватсья. *Если кто-то злобно оскорбил оппонента, и обвинил его в *надуманных *преступлениях , приписал ему действия, о коих не было даже умысла, и после этого смылся по добру по здорову, вы ожидаете, что оппонент должен благородно промолчать и проглотить всю эту дрянь, которую на него вылили? * Не тут-то было. *Оппонент имеет право опровергнуть грязные нападки. *И он это делает открыто, на этом форуме, для всеобщего обозрения. *Так что не надо рассказывать про "сплетни за спиной". *Это, право, смешно. *
Оскорбитель удалился, и мне совсем не жалко. *Олег, и вам не советую жалеть. *Истинное лицо рано и поздно проявляется. *Никаким *там терпением к точке зрения оппонента *и не пахнет.

[Зоя Зося]

Мария, надеюсь это вы не *ко мне обращаетесь? Меня никто пока не оскорблял здесь лично, поэтому с моей стороны это были бы сплетни за спиной. Оппонент-то, как вы заметили, уже не присутствует на открытом заседании. А меня попросили прокомментировать его выступление. В его отсутствии. Теперь понятно, что я лично имела в виду? *-)

[Светлана Гэмм]

Mike, the post he highlighted..
he said the "grass-root" economic threat worked.. Maria described what she thought of the "grass-root threat"...
people can see for themselves if she was right..
***********.youtube.com/watch?v=3c6KB_hwzf4

[Мария]

Зоя, оппонент принял гордое решение не присутствовать, но никто его не прогонял. *Он имеет доступ к форуму. *В чём проблема?
Юля решила заступиться за собрата, не разобравшись в сути дела... *Not a good idea generally:-)
He is not worth our time, anyway.

[Лина]

you honestly believe that the grassroot economic sanctions Aleksey was referring to were really a bunch of protesting Mexicans depicted in that video? did you even bother reading the article he linked in his post?

[Лина]

Юля решила заступиться за собрата, не разобравшись в сути дела.
---------------------------------------------------------
all she said was that you shouldn't be talking about people behind their backs. where exactly did you see her taking sides? now Sveta, on the other hand, had her head so far up your a@@, it's no wonder you complete each other's sentences.

[Mike]

there is NO SUCH THING as talking behind someones back in public forum.
he's not blacklisted from the group, so it's like talking about someone when he keeps his fingers in his own ears..

[Mike]

and Alexey REALLY over-reacted..
i mean Marias post was baby-talk compared to what you girls say to each other..

[Лина]

there is NO SUCH THING as talking behind someones back in public forum.
----------------------------------------------------------------
there is if you know that the person left the group and has no intention of coming back. and even if he were to come back, it's not like he's gonna scour through every thread in search of any piece of dirt someone might have said about him in his absence. so in that regard, badmouthing a person when they're not there to defend themselves is tantamount to talking about them behind their back. :-)

[Олег Сах]

i mean Marias post was baby-talk compared to what you girls say to each other..


EXACTLY!!!

[Мария]

********tinyurl.com/3ay74pu
A message to comrade Obama from We the People
An inspiration to all patriots ( not to be viewed by trolls)

[Мария]

Homicidal Illegal Alien Is Free to Stay
When you see illegal aliens making public pageants of their contempt for our national sovereignty, you have to ask yourself: just how hard is it for a foreigner who doesn't belong here to get thrown out of this country? Here's how hard:
On March 13, 2005, Rwandan national, Ngere Omari, was driving the wrong way on Interstate 5, near Seattle, Wa., when he crashed head-on into the car being driven by Heather Lee Meadows.
Meadows, 20, was killed instantly and her passenger was seriously injured.
At the time of the crash, Omari had a blood-alcohol level of .18, was on probation and had a suspended license for an earlier DUI. He was convicted of vehicular homicide and sentenced to six years behind bars.

[Мария]

During his imprisonment, he received multiple surgeries, physical therapy and mental health care. Because he does not speak English, he was also given a translator to communicate with the medical personnel… all at the expense of the taxpayers.
Though Omari entered the country illegally, he requested and was granted political asylum, due to Rwanda's civil war.
Last Tuesday, Omari walked out of the Monroe Correctional Complex, a free man. He was given a year off for good behavior.
At the time he was sent to prison, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement placed a hold on him, and apparently planned to deport him upon his release. However, that hold was later lifted, and Omari is free to remain in the U.S.
How much do you want to bet he's collecting public assistance?

[Лина]

A zeal to nab illegal immigrants ensnares many innocent people, including a Minnesota native.


Thomas Warziniack was born in Minnesota and grew up in Georgia, but immigration authorities pronounced him an illegal immigrant from Russia.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement has held Warziniack for weeks in an Arizona detention facility with the aim of deporting him to a country he's never seen. His jailers shrugged off Warziniack's claims that he was an American citizen, even though they could have retrieved his Minnesota birth certificate in minutes and even though a Colorado court had concluded that he was a U.S. citizen a year before it shipped him to Arizona.
On Thursday, Warziniack finally became a free man. Immigration officials released him after his family, who learned about his predicament from a reporter, produced a birth certificate and after a U.S. senator demanded his release.

[Лина]

An unpublished study by the Vera Institute of Justice, a New York nonprofit organization, in 2006 identified 125 people in immigration detention centers across the nation who immigration lawyers believed had valid U.S. citizenship claims.

Unlike suspects charged in criminal courts, detainees accused of immigration violations don't have a right to an attorney, and three-quarters of them represent themselves.

[Мария]

Bias in the Media
From Media Research Center
MRC Study:
By 12 to 1, ABC, CBS, and NBC Rip Arizona's Immigration Law
When political scientists compare populism and elitism, they could certainly find a test case in the new Arizona law on immigration enforcement. While Rasmussen found 70 percent of Arizonans favored the crackdown on illegal aliens, and new national media polls found majority support as well, ABC, CBS, and NBC denounced the popular will as short-sighted and discriminatory.

[Мария]

From April 23 to May 3, the top three television networks offered viewers 50 stories and interview segments on their morning and evening news programs. The tone was strongly hostile to the law and promotional to the "growing storm" of left-wing protesters: 37 stories (or 74 percent) were negative, 10 were neutral, and only three were positive toward the Arizona law's passage -- 12 negative stories for every one that leaned positive. Stories were much kinder and sympathetic to illegal aliens than they were to police officers. Cops were potential abusers of power. Entering the country illegally was not an abuse of power. It was portrayed as an honorable step by the powerless.
:-| That's how they brainwash sheeple.

[Dima Mov]

Смотрите кто такой Обама
************.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28

[Леонид]

вчера слышал на Марк Левин сегодня на Глен Бек. Наши царьки тянут свои руки к нашему 401К

[Светлана Гэмм]

October 1929, stocks crash on sharply falling expectations of nominal GDP growth.
October 2008, stocks crash on sharply falling expectations of nominal GDP growth.

Early 1931, stocks rise on signs of recovery.
Early 2010, stocks rise on signs of recovery.

May 1931, stocks fall as European banking/sovereign debt crisis begins (Kreditanstalt).
May 2010, stocks fall, as European banking/sovereign debt crisis begins.......

[Гена Гакд]

Что едят и что пьют Американцы?(тема о том что органические продукты больше не присутствуют на столах у американцев)...

[Мария]

Кто сказал, что не присутствуют? *Очень даже присутствуют, и приветствуются. *Если деньги есть их покупать.

[Мария]

Даже Альберсон сделал маленьнкую секцийку, где можно купить чахлые органические салатики и морковку. И wall -mart скоро организует нечто подобное. *Чем больше слух о пользе органических продуктов расходится по матушке Земле, тем дешелве оные становятся.

[Галя]

6 июня в 12 дня в Нью-Йорке - митинг по поводу строительства исламского центра рядом с Граунд-Зеро:
********nomosquesatgroundzero.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/stop-the-911-mosque-protest-june-6-2010/

[Олег Сах]

Ну что? Какие мысли по поводу сегодняшних выборов? Если республиканцы займут обе палаты, в чем я уверен, что принесет это стране? Будут ли потрачены следующие два года на мышиную возню? Каким вы видите курс обоих партий для исправления ситуации в стране?

[Леонид]

похоже что и в Нью Й орке и в Калифорнии победят демократы. В колорадо так же.. и будет изменение ... от плохого к худшему...
21 год я в стране и вижу одних и тех - сенаторов. они уэ мотают свои сроки по сколько раз... ну и никах их невозможно переизбрать....так глядишь ... всвязи с изменением демографии скоро будут голосовать все за демократов... и у нас будет однопартийная система ( не дай бог)

[Ивaн Dина]

Демократам нужно года 3-4, чтобы полностью воссановить экономику после республиканской эпохи. Ведь в яму экономику штатов опустили именно господствующие во времена Буша республиканцы (с этим фактом не поспоришь, поскольку демократы были тогда "не при делах"), одна война сколько денег высасала. *Если республиканцы займут обе палаты, то это должно поспособствовать более эффективной работе команды президента. Это полезно, когда президент и парламент разнопартийные. Надеюсь, что палки в колеса вбивать не будут.

[Сергей Вай]

Demokratam nuzhno.... skolko skolko? 3-4? A kakie uspexi za 2 goda? Бушу понадобилось полтора года, чтобы ввести страну в прежнюю ресессию после процветания предыдущих 8 лет. Ресессия оказалась плёвой - всего 6 месяцев. Закончилась в ноябре-декабре 2001го. Тем не менее, безработица держалась вплоть до середины 2003го.
Эта ресессия началась в дек. 2007го, закончилась в июне-июле 2009го, продолжалась более полутора лет, и вышла из состояния свободного падения только лишь благодаря финансовым "электрошоковым" мерам - TARPу и STIMULOSу. Как известно, частный сектор уже нанимает 9 месяцев подряд. Маркет растёт с середины марта 2009го - и не плохо растёт (6,500->11,200)! Тем не менее, даже статистически ещё слишком рано ожидать чудес в плане радикального снижения уровня безработицы.
Поэтому вся эта возня с "общенародным недовольством" демократами и политикой Правительства - не что иное, как реакция плохо разбирающейся в происходящем толпы, ослеплённой собственными предрассудками и сладкой демагогией а то и вовсе неприкрытой ложью некоторых хорошо известных радио- и ТВ-жокеев.

[Сергей Вайс]

Если республиканцы займут обе палаты, то это должно поспособствовать более эффективной работе команды президента. Так бывало раньше. К сожалению, сейчас налицо признаки совершенно иной ситуации. Митч МкКоннел уже обозначил приоритеты республиканцев: это не борьба с безработицей и не восстановление экономики, это не дефицит бюджета и не грозящие дефициты фондов Social Security или Medicare, это даже не доведение до конца хотя бы какой-нибудь из нынешних войн, не защита от терроризма, не разрешене проблем с Ираном, Кореей или между Израилем и палестинцами, не иммиграционная реформа, и не укрепление финансового контроля над бесчинствующими финансовыми и интернациональными корпорациями. И это даже не контроль над национальным долгом! Главная заботой республиканцев, оказывается, будет - сделать всё возможное, чтобы Обама не был переизбран на 2й срок! Вот те и слуги народа, за которых сегодня голосует большинство русских американцев!
Пусть МкКоннел дурак, пусть сморозил ерунду. Но ведь то, что у дурака на языке, у "умных" на уме.

[Леонид]

1. Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto Mark R. Levin
2. Trickle Up Poverty: Stopping Obama's Attack on Our Borders, Economy, and Security by Michael Savage
эти все книги должны стать вашими "настольными книгами". Здесь и только здесь вы найдете ответы на ваши вопросы, а не в высказываниях обамаманьяков .....

[Олег Сах]

Мне кажется, что овет таков: просто Буш понизил налоги как средство выхода из кризиса, а Обама потратил почти триллион долларов на стимуляцию экономики, которая не сработала.
Два разных подхода директоров рынка. Один понизил расценки для *торговцев, другой раздал деньги друзьям, в надежде что они их потратят у него на рынке. Не потратили. Неправильный подход к человеческой сути. Вот что происходит, когда к реальной жизни подходят с теориями из университета. "Гладко было на бумаге, но забыли про овраги"

[Ивaн Dина]

Demokratam nuzhno.... skolko skolko? 3-4? A kakie uspexi za 2 goda?Да, хотябы войну закончили. Буш бы со своими ребятами сейчас уже полез в Иран что нибудь искать.

[Олег Сах]

Да, хотя бы войну закончили.
Иван, не для того чтобы прославить Буша или обо*рать Обаму: война в Ираке была закончена по расписанию полностью оговоренному Бушем перед уходом. Это не секрет, и Обама поэтому не записывает завершение войны в Ираке в списки своих достижений. За что ему (Y)

[Сергей Вай]

Если Бушу понадобилось полтора года чтобы ввести страну в рецессию и полгода чтобы из неё вывести (мы уже не говорим о причине рецессии - *9/11), Олег, ресессия 2001го началась в марте и закончилась в декабре 2001го. Влияние 9/11 на ту ресессию было значительно раздуто из политических соображений, но фактически незначительно. Пострадали туризм и авиатранспорт. Остальные секторы экономики событие почти не задело. то Обама за два года президентства, через 16 месяцев после окончания рецессии Поправка - 14 мес. Кризис официально начался в декабре 2007го и закончился в июле 2009го. каким то образом удерживает страну в состоянии рекордной безработицы, самого высокого уровня home foreclosures в истории США и самого мизерного уровня personal income в истории. Обама ко всем этим факторам имеет отношение только по словам наименее объективных демагогов. Безработица всегда запаздывает в сравнении с ростом GDP. Например, в ресессии 2001го эта задержка была полтора года, хотя ресессия оказалась в 13 раз! легче. Ипотечные дефолты напрямую связаны с безработицей и потерей людьми финансовых возможностей платить долги. Отсюда и задержка жилищного кризиса. Покупательная способность среднего американца резко упала при Буше. Ещё сильнее - с начала массовых сокращений в конце 2008го, и достигла минимума в середине 2009го. Жалобы к Бушу.Чем это оправдать? Буш так ловко подстроил? Оправдывать здесь совершенно нечего. Тем более упоминать "ловкость" Буша. Демонтаж систем защиты в финансовой системе (читай: ослабление регулировок и гос. надзора за шулерскими повадками банков), начавшейся ещё при Рейгане, де-регуляция, навязанная Клинтону республиканским Конгрессом в 1999м, и полный разгул бесконтрольной хищнической банковской практики при Буше довели страну чуть ли не до банкротства. Только лишь беспрецедентными мерами и колоссальными долгами в конце правления Буша и в начале правления Обамы страна медленно начала выкорабкиваться из той ямы, куда её завели по большей части республиканцы, хотя и не без помощи демократов.

[Khramaya]

my biggest question to all the Republicans is: how do they PRACTICALLY( not theoretically) propose to balance the budget while lowering thetaxes? Is there a historical precedent? See, I'm not an economist, sowould really appreciate logical, step-by-step explanation.

[Павел Дуд]

Юлия, а не считаю себя республиканцем или экономистом. Уменьшение налогов не должно быть единственным средством. Главное - не лезть государству во все дырки, отдать многое в частные руки. Тогда и расходы уменьшатся. А уменьшение налогов просто простимулирует частный бизнес забрать у государства то, что оно ему отдаст.

[Сергей Вайсф]

Очень упрощённый подход, опирающийся на уже давно несуществующие или изменившиеся процессы в государстве. Для начала рекомендую почитать следующую статью экономиста:
***********.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/30/AR2010073002671.html

[Олег Сах]

To Julia:
Republicans propose to cut government spending, it's a huge beast, especially here in NYS. There are various agencies that double the duties. Dept of Ed that I am familiar with is wasting away millions if not billions in made up tasks.
If you lower taxes and attract business you can switch those non-productive government jobs to private sector benefiting everyone.
And no, Sergey, nothing have changed, the game is the same, you make a business atmosphere more attractive and more taxpayers move to your state, hence, more revenue. It's quite simple, actually.

[Khramaya]

Ok - one good point on cutting duplicated state agencies. Totally agree with this one.

[Khramaya]

Oh, btw who can give 5 examples on how Republican administrations cut duplicated services? I mean, real life examples, in any state. So it wouldn't be an empty phrase. Practical experience to follow, you know.

[Павел Дуд]

Юлия, Что касается Department of Education (did you mean it by writing "Ed"?), то государство должно установить правильные критерии их работы. А сейчас они сами их и устанавливают, и исполняют. И дошли до того, что главное - посещаемость в школах, а отнюдь не оценки. Просто пример маразма.
Что касается деятельности республиканцев, то я вовсе не уверен что они смогут заметно сократить дублирование и раздать часть функций в частные руки. Они ведь тоже жертва вышеупомянутого образования, когда учат трепаться, а не работать.

[Сергей Вайс]

Теперь о том, кто что и как успешно потратил.

Мне кажется, что овет таков: просто Буш понизил налоги как средство выхода из кризиса, а Обама потратил почти триллион долларов на стимуляцию экономики, которая не сработала.
Два разных подхода директоров рынка. Один понизил расценки для *торговцев, другой раздал деньги друзьям, в надежде что они их потратят у него на рынке.
За 2001-2010 гг Бушево нефинансированное снижение налогов стоило нам всем (в виде нац.долга) $2.11T плюс $379B на интерес, который мы платим за заёмы:
********crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/study-bush-tax-cuts-cost-more-twice-m
Далее, судя по всему Вы, Олег, намекаете на Bailout (TARP - Trobled Assets Recovery Program. Этот Акт был предложен Бушем-Полсеном и принят Сенатом в октябре 2008го, и стоил нам $700B. Основной целью этого акта, как и предполагает его название, был выкуп у банков несостоятельных ценных думаг, в том числе иппотек:********useconomy.about.com/od/criticalssues/a/govt_bailout.htmПервая часть пакета ещё при Буше была роздана едва дышущим банкам без каких бы то ни было условий. Вторая часть была уже распределена правительством Обамы - и с условиями. Почти все потраченные деньги (включая приближающиеся выплаты от AIG) были УЖЕ возвращены в казну - с процентами!Если же на самом деле Вы имели в виду STIMULOS (Recovery Act), принятый в начале 2009го, то стоил он $787B (WH) или $862B (CBO), и включал инвестиции в инфраструктуру, фин. помощь штатам, и облегчение налогов (всеми сейчас забытое). Около $200-300B из зарезервированной суммы так ещё и не потрачено. Существуют различные точки зрения на успешность этого билла. Но одно сейчас совершенно очевидно: GDP начал расти с середины 2009го и головокружительное увеличение безработицы было остановлено. Также, что касается именно этого, Обамового акта, то ВСЕ потраченные деньги были действительно потрачены, потрачены в стране, на программы, которые приносят дивиденды, и на людей, которые тут же возвращают эти деньги назад в экономику.

[Сергей Вай]

If you lower taxes and attract business you can switch those non-productive government jobs to private sector benefiting everyone.Jobs like what? FDIC? FDA? DL? OSHA? Army, Navy, AF? CIA and FBI? Treasury? Social Security and Medicare? You're kidding, right?

[Сергей Вайсф]

And no, Sergey, nothing have changed, the game is the same, you make a business atmosphere more attractive and more taxpayers move to your state, hence, more revenue. Unfortunately this sentiment is way outdated! This theory worked well in the pre-Wal-Mart epoch of Mom-and-Pop stores and small shops. But now there is (almost) no good old American Capitalism left anymore. What we have instead is blossoming Oligarchy of Monstrous Global Corporations, which make things abroad and sell them to us - for now, and until somebody here still has money. The small companies can hardly compete anymore - be it prices for consumers, salaries or benefits for employees.
Just to be fair: I don't think there is anything wrong with the new world order. That is, except for the "Oligarchy" part of it. When in addition to their financial might these corporation are becoming unopposed politically, there is a very good reason to worry for all of us. Because these monsters don't care about America and you and me. Their only focus is profit, however they can realize it. Remember BP's oil spill? (BTW, just one more reason to have a robust Gov't overdog!).

[Гера Така]

Am I reading this correctly?

Is this a serious discussion and push for a robust Gov't overdog?
Don't we know enough about it? The big machine never works... the left hand never aligns in the same direction the right one goes...
This is seriously way too late... may be since Germans established their government machine in time of ... Bismark.
Cheers.(D)

[Сергей Вай]

В дополнение к вопросу о долгах: забыл упомянуть наши обе войны, которые на сегодня нам стоят тоже около триллиона. Итак, Бушевых заёмов: $2.4T + $1T + $0.7T = $4.1T. Обамовых заёмов по консервативным подсчётам: $0.9T - $0.2T + $1 = $1.7T. Последняя составляющая (на самом деле $940B) - на Реформу Здравоохранения - это ненастоящие траты, поскольку мы УЖЕ тратим бОльшие деньги на лечение незастрахованных и на злоупотребления в нынешней системе.

[Сергей Вай]

Is this a serious discussion and push for a robust Gov't overdog?
Yes, the key word here is ROBUST, meaning not as much "big" as "tough". Don't we know enough about it? No, you don't. You only know about it what you have heard from the most politically biased sources. The big machine never works... Wanna bet? Take a look at this:
********video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2550050282404931944# (v)

[Гера Така]

The big government cannot be robust by definition, no matter what you say, think or reference.

[Гера Така]

In addition, you don't know what I have heard, or where I get my knowledge from... least of all I am interested in the internet link with some information.
Cheers.(D)

[Сергей Вайс]

My friend,
You cannot possibly assess what I know. You can only assume. You've just disclosed that yourself. One empty statement merits another. Sorry.

[Сергей Вайс]

least of all I am interested in the internet link with some information. I must be dumb, but I din't get this one...

[Гера Така]

I do not get it.
You make an empty miningless sentence and then... ???You did not get that one because (dumb), people get ther education from the books not rumors and stupid references with statistics which can be turned any way around.
Stop preaching here... go and read something miningfull, like US Constituion for example, or history of American revolution, or anything about Founding Farthers of this country... and then may be you will be able to say - scratch all of that. Lets build a better Soviet Union with the "robust" government.
No respect...
Cheers...(D)

[Олег Сах]

I invited Sergey to this group because he is one of a very few people belonging to an Obama supporting minority of Russian speakers who makes sense and stands ground. Gera, you are my friend, but can we please refrain from telling people where to go and what to do?

[Сергей Вайсф]

Олег, спасибо за заступничество. Я ценю Вашу уравновешенность, невзирая на наши с Вами идеологические расхождения. Должен однако заметить, что таких хамов как Гера (извините за резкость к Вашему другу) я уже повидал немало, и значительно больше, чем мне необходимо для нормальной жизни и интересных бесед на ОК. Обычно, когда в таких случаях люди начинают постепенно сползать к колкостям и перестают соблюдать приличия (мы всё-таки говорим о спорных вещах, и у всех хватает темперамента), я тоже могу последовать по этой дороге. Сожалею и признаюсь. В иных же случаях, когда проявления хамства внезапны, необоснованы и совершенно очевидны, я просто прекращаю разговор. По трём причинам: такой разговор НЕ интересен. Ничего нового он мне не даст. У собеседника, прибегающего к площадной брани посреди серьёзного разговора, очевидно больше нет стоящих мыслей. Как и в этом случае.

[Khramaya]

Gera, can you for one provide some facts, numbers and comparisons. For some reason, I strangely miss Sveta in this discussion:-D , she always provided ate last some links and facts instead of just empty rhetoric

[Гера Така]

No facts, no numbers, no statistics... your Russian speaking friend (read him ) was the first who told me what to do. That showed me his cultural level.
Second, I did not say anything about or against Obama. I simply argued against big government. There - he pronounced me "dumb".
Only then I suggested to read some books, which would do him good.
His behavior and ideas - preaching, in principle - tell us what to do, like he knows it. That is my biggest problem with this visitor from another planet.
Cheers... I am not coming back to this page... save your dirty mouth and the rest of your poison.

[Олег Сах]

If you lower taxes and attract business you can switch those non-productive government jobs to private sector benefiting everyone.
Jobs like what? FDIC? FDA? DL? OSHA? Army, Navy, AF? CIA and FBI? Treasury? Social Security and Medicare? You're kidding, right?
No. I'm not kidding, and I was not talking about Federal Agencies, but state agencies. Here is the list New York State agencies. How many of them could be combined into one, and how many of those we can live without? Cut these people salaries, take away their cars, parking spaces, pensions, overtime, vacation and travel money and you can afford to lower taxes and make the state attractive for businesses again. And if we are really smart we can take the newly found money and use them to cut property taxes making areas like Buffalo attractive again, heck, there is enough infrastructure there. Instead of funding Buffalo Fiscal Stability Authority. Also, I completely understand that some of the agencies listed are needed and also understand that taking away so many jobs could create an unemployment issue, but if you make it more attractive to the factory to stay here then outsource, bam! there are jobs galore.

[Олег Сах]

Adirondack Park Agency

Aging, Office for

Agriculture and Markets, Department of

Alcoholic Beverage Control, Division of (State Liquor Authority)

Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Services, Office of

Arts, Council on

Assembly, New York State

Attorney General, Office of

Authority Budget Office

Banking Department

Battery Park City Authority

Bridge Authority, New York State

Budget, Division of

Buffalo Fiscal Stability Authority

Central Pine Barrens Joint Planning and Policy Commission, The

Chief Information Officer, Office of New York State

Children and Families, Council on

Children and Family Services, Office of

City University of New York

Civil Service, Department of

Community Renewal, Ofice of

[Олег Сах]

Consumer Protection Board (En Espanol)

Corcraft Products (Dept. of Correctional Services, Division of Industries)

Correction, Commission of

Correctional Services, Department of

Correctional Services, Division of Industries (Corcraft), Department of

Court Administration, Office of

Criminal Justice Services, Division of

Cyber Security and Critical Infrastructure Coordination, Office of

Developmental Disabilities Planning Council

Dormitory Authority

Education, Department of

Elections, Board of

Emergency Management Office, State (SEMO)

Empire State Development

Employee Assistance Program, NYS

Employee Relations, Governor's Office of

Employment Relations Board, NYS

Energy Research and Development Authority

Environmental Conservation, Department of

Environmental Facilities Corporation

Erie County Fiscal Stability Authority

[Олег Сах]

Family Assistance, Department of

Financial Control Board, New York State

General Services, Office of

Geographic Information Systems (GIS) Clearinghouse

Governor's Office

Governor's Traffic Safety Committee

Health, Department of

Higher Education Services Corporation

Homeland Security, Office of

Housing and Community Renewal, Division of

Housing Finance Agency/State of NY Mortgage Agency (SONYMA)

Hudson River Park Trust

Hudson River Valley Greenway

Hudson-Fulton-Champlain Quadricentennial Commission

Human Rights, Division of

Inspector General, Office of the

Insurance Department

Insurance Fund, State

Judicial Conduct, Commission on

Labor, Department of

Local Government Efficiency & Competitiveness, Commission on

Lottery, Division of

Medicaid Inspector General, Office of

Mental Health, Office of (En Espanol)

[Олег Сах]

Metropolitan Transportation Authority

Military and Naval Affairs, Division of

Motor Vehicles, Department of

Nassau County Interim Finance Authority

New York State Commission on Higher Education

New York State Law Revision Commission

NYS Canal Corporation

Office of Victim Services (En Espanol)

Olympic Regional Development Authority

Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, Office of

Parole, Division of

People With Developmental Disabilities, Office for

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

Power Authority

Prevention of Domestic Violence, Office for the

Probation and Correctional Alternatives, Division of

Public Employment Relations Board

Public Integrity, Commission on

Public Service, Department of

Quality of Care and Advocacy for Persons with Disabilities, Commission on

Racing and Wagering Board

Real Property Tax Services, Office of

Regulatory Reform, Governor's Office of

Roosevelt Island Operating Corporation of the State of New York

Science, Technology and Innovation, NYS Foundation for

Senate, New York State

South Shore Estuary Council

State Comptroller, Office of

State Employees Federated Appeal (SEFA)

State Police, Division of

State University Construction Fund

State University of New York (SUNY)

State, Department of

Tax Appeals and Tax Appeals Tribunal, Division of

Taxation and Finance, Department of

Teachers' Retirement System

Technology, Office for

Temporary and Disability Assistance, Office of

Thruway Authority

Transportation Federation, The New York State

Transportation, Department of

Veterans' Affairs, Division of

Welfare Inspector General, Office of the

Workers Compensation Board

[Сергей Вай]

That's an impressive list of agencies you compiled, Oleg! Office of Mental Health? Canal Corporation? Buffalo Fiscal Stability Authority
and Office of Community Renewal? Пожалуй, несколько сократить NY штатские оффисы, а заодно и довести 9% в NY налогов до 6.5% в KS, может действительно будет нелишним. Более того, то же скорее всего нужно сделать с Федеральным Правительством. Но с тем, что правительство должно быть более эффективным и содержать меньше дармоедов, никто ведь не спорит. Также, как и с тем фактом, что каждое из этих перечисленных агенств когда-то были нужны и одобрены публикой, но, со временем изжив себя, так и остались в реестре.

Поэтому, решение проблемы не в том, что "правительство должно быть малым", а в том, чтобы оно было правительством с достаточной властью над действительными и злободневными проблемами, и без балласта ненужных программ, и соответственно без неоправданных налоговых тягот для граждан и бизнесов. Но как это сделать, чтобы все (или хотя бы большинство) были довольны?
Приведу пример. Мой город содержит дюжину снегоуборочных траков, и имеет персонал, тренерованый в управлении этими машинами. Когда-то давно, когда город был ещё маленький, этих траков и людей вполне было достаточно для поддержания порядка в городе в редких случаях серьёзных заносов или гололёдов. Со временем город разросся на десятки миль, и начал нанимать в кризисные моменты частников-контракторов. Когда-то городской служащий на городском траке выезжал на объект, чистил его, и был таков за пару часов. Теперь на десятки объектов выезжают десятки контракторов, и елозят по ним до утра. Потому что им платят почасово, и платят невпример больше, чем своим служащим. Более того, теперь вместе с контракторами на участки выезжают городские инспекторы - следить за временем и качеством уборки контракторов, и из-за бесконечных звонков граждан, недовольных сугробами у обочин, шумом работ среди ночи, лаем перепуганных собак и мяуканием перепуганных кошек.
Одним из решений проблемы было бы перестать чистить снег вообще, несколько сократив налоги. Возможно это даже стимулировало бы торговлю монстро-образными SUV. Но если серьёзно, то прошлой зимой с моей улицы народ не смог бы выехать дальше своего гаража втечение пары недель заносов.
Вот и дилема: иметь свой собственный штат, достаточный для большинства ситуаций, и оплачиваемый посредственно, или прибегать к помощи $200/час контракторов и всё равно высылать своих людей вместе с ними?
Кстати, в начале нынешнего года мениципалитет всё-таки сократил дюжину персонала, включая Maintenance.

[Олег Сах]

Прекрасный пример. Одна проблема. От этого контракта несет за версту kickbacks, nepotism, corruption и бог весть знает чем еще. Нормальный контракт заключал бы в себе сумму за которую компания должна в течении года убирать все без исключения улицы, *без учета часов, машин, и инспекций. Если город получит более десяти проверенных жалоб на неубранные улицы от жителей, контракт отбирается. И, поверьте, если за этот контракт будут биться на открытом аукционе (что случается нечасто), то желающих найдется достаточно, и до цены они доторгуются приемлемой.
А так, Ваш пример и есть пример неэффективности муниципалитета, те же яйца, только в профиль. Просто вместо неэффективного городского сервиса, с почасовой оплатой, овертаймами и армией дармоедов-инспекторов, то же самое было было представлено в форме найма частников-контрактников.

[Славик Саж]

Сергей,
The small companies can hardly compete anymore - be it prices for consumers, salaries or benefits for employees.
Not true, not true at all. Small and midsize American companies cannot compete, nor was it ever a goal, in ширпотреб, mass-produced, dollar-store junk, walmart, buy-one-get-one-free type markets. Decades ago we had junk from Japan and now we have junk from China. So Oleg is right, nothing really changed.
Different players, same game.
America prospered in the past and will prosper again because of its ability to invent new and improve existing products and services. And no one does this better then small or mid-size company. *A hungry, but determined guy with idea. US is packed with companies that make high cost (relatively) small volume product. Anything from sensors, to turbines, to airplanes. Whatever is made in hundreds or thousands is made here, whatever is made in millions is made overseas. Makes perfect business sense.
But in order for hungry guy with idea to strive, he has to be able to invest and expand. Invest in help (people), material, experiments, etc. And if government cannot help small guy (read small/midsize company) to invest, very least they can do is get the hell out of the way and stop chocking him with numerous laws, restrictions and regulations. *
Like Oleg said - you make a business atmosphere more attractive
I care less if company that makes $5 products moves to China. It's likely a low profit margin operation and offers a louzy pay. *I want companies that make cars, airplanes, medical devises, etc and its components (suppliers) to be here.
Like Oleg said - you make a business atmosphere more attractive

[Славик Саж]

Сергей,
1. или прибегать к помощи $200/час контракторов и всё равно высылать своих людей вместе с ними? - How about you stop paying them $200 and pay them $50 instead. Do you think they not gonna show up for $50/hr. Do you think the guy with plow truck can do better somewhere else? And after reading your post of 22:08 my next question is - see # 2
2. Are you sure your are not a republican?

[Славик Саж]

Here is another "Просто о политике" тема для обсуждения:
Alvin Greene - Democratic party nominee for US Senate from South Carolina.
Few things about Greene:
Unemployed
Dishonorably discharged from Army
Under investigation for s ex-type crime (showing p orn to minor)
Lives with his father
Can barely say two words in front of a camera
Somehow gathered enough money ($10K) to put his name on the ballot
Well known facts about him way before the election.
Receives 28% of votes during the election this Thursday. That's 28%, not 28 people.
Over 100,000 people voted for him during June's primary although this guy didn't even have enough money for advertising or yard signs. Nor was he ever in public office or famous in any way.
Oh, did I mention he is african-american?
So, if this is not voting along the party line and for specific skin color then what is?
Too bad this guy lost the election. I would love to see him representing democrats in senate

[Khramaya]

Alan Green is an idiot... We are not going to miss him. But I am going to miss Feingold...Oleg- impressive list, agree, it could be just as effective if it's 1/3 of it's length. As far as small businesses based on innovation - totally agree with Slavik's post, they are indeed the future of America. And then small businesses should employ all those folks who will be unemployed after duplicated government agencies will get consolidated:-D ( no, thank you :-D ). OK, I am still trying to figure out what other constructive steps could be taken to close 700B budget gap that will account for continuing Bush level of taxes on the top 2%? We agreed on consolidating duplicating government services and agencies, this is good. ( btw, from what I understand , during Bush era government spending rose greatly despite conservative rhetoric about smaller government - and we have numbers to prove this). Anything else practically doable?

[Сергей Вайс]

Прекрасный пример. Одна проблема. От этого контракта несет за версту kickbacks, nepotism, corruption и бог весть знает чем еще. Not true. It is a real life story. My wife, who works for the Public Works Dept of this municipality, and who is one of the leading participants of the "snow cleaning" program, told me this story. There is no kickbacks or nepotism. I know personally all these people. And I don't get my share of "hound puppies". I also can confirm that City's Maintenace Dept certainly knows most of their regular contractors. So, I guess if you look at this upside down or inside out, you can call it a "nepotism". On the other hand, do you know the real cost of plowing snow? Huge and very expensive diesel hogs, with big knives, expensive licensure, self-employment tax, and not a full-time deal. How much do you think the market rate should be? Do you think they will work for $50? Do you think City didn't try? Before firing own personnel because of lack of funding?

[Сергей Вайс]

Славик Сажко, I totally share your sentiment regarding small businesses. I am the one. The problem is - I'm pretty convinced in what I said about not being able to compete with big outsourcing corporations. And not only from my own experience. Right now I'm on the middle of negotiations with another SMB. Very small. Guess what they do? Yes, whaever they do - they do it in China! The same with my previous customer. My other potential customer is up his nose in India. And by the way, I am struggling now, but not from overreach of the Government, but from the tenfold reduction in the number of contracts. Any guess where did they come from before? Correct, from the big companies, which now subcontract to elsewhere but the US SMBs.
So I'm enthusiastically with you on small businesses being bread and butter and rock of the US economy, on innovations and ingenuity, on ideas and inventions, and blah, blah, blah. In real world however it's not always as it's written on political signs and banners.

[Сергей Вайс]

And yes, I too believe that sooner or later we will overcome our difficulties. I also believe that it would be very much to our advantage to have as an ally such a big dude as our Government. Because we don't really have other allies. Most of them are already in China or Brazil, and are not really interested in our prosperities for they are not "us" anymore.
BTW, do you know that majority (60%) of the SMB owners have under $250K earnings? Not to mention all write-offs they can use. That's where dollars should be spent, and where they would make the biggest splash on the buck.

[Сергей Вайс]

Are you sure your are not a republican?
No, I'm not. Nor am I a Democrat. I'm categorically unaffiliated, and I feel free to go wherever my world vision will take me. For instance, I voted for Rep Presidents twice. After watching Reps and what they did to our Presidency and whole country during Clinton-Lewinsky ordeal I grew pretty disgusted with them. Seing the country flourish in 90's has also moved me closer to the left. And I was absolutely terrified and disgusted again with the following 8 years of Bush Jr. Moreover, in the past 2 years I saw nothing that would change my impression of the Reps as worthless demagogues and being totally uninterested in leading the country.

[Сергей Вайс]

Alvin Greene - Democratic party nominee for US Senate from South Carolina.
Ha! There was a hypothesis circulated in the media about Alvin Greene being a Reps' "Trojan Horse" to spoil the Dems' chances. I don't believe it's true. More likely he's happened to be on the alphabetical list of candidates above Vic Rawl. But he has made a nice counter-balance to come of the most notable Tea Party candidates, hasn't he? At least he was not involved in the Black Magic, didn't argue with the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, and didn't call for armed takeover of our Government.

[Khramaya]

Sergej - totally agree with your sentiments on hypocrisy and demagoguery of conservatives. Especially social conservatives. Fiscal conservatism is healthy, the way it is NOT implemented - is the problem .....conservatives just give it lip service. Yes, Bush lowered taxes - and what happened to the economy?:-( . As far as small business - we just have to do what China CAN"T do. I know many of these businesses, we actually have one. And are not planning to outsource.

[Олег Сах]

Too bad this guy lost the election. I would love to see him representing democrats in senate
It's OK, the guy with similar political experience, or lack of it, represents the democrats in the White House

[Сергей Вайс]

Fiscal conservatism is healthy, the way it is NOT implemented - is the problem .....conservatives just give it lip service. It is healthy, and we badly need it - after we get out of the crisis. Only fiscal conservativism is not represented by Reps at all. In fact, in 96, 2 years after last Reps' takeover of the Congress, they CALLED FOR HIGHER DEBT! And that's the same people, who now assault the Dems for the debts they made! Yes, Bush lowered taxes - and what happened to the economy? What a great economists! Just like leeches were the panacea from all illnesses in the past, so are tax cuts for all our economic troubles. They didn't work in 2007 or 2008. What do we do if they don't work now?
As far as small business - we just have to do what China CAN"T do. And what is that? Are they less educated? Or not as smart? Or lazy? The balance may start changing when Chinese or Indians or Mexican will catch up with us in the standards of living and pay levels.

[Сергей Вай]

Milton Friedman: Greed
I personally totally agree with Friedman. With only one reservation: there must be checks and balances in every system including capitalism. Otherwise what you call "capitalism" I call "oligarchy" not too different from its present Russian version.

[Гера Така]

... including Capitalism???
Give any example of the checks and balances in other "regimes".
I understand Stalin's checks... any others?

[Лина]

Too bad this guy lost the election. I would love to see him representing democrats in senate
It's OK, the guy with similar political experience, or lack of it, represents the democrats in the White House
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where as, GW's extensive political experience, definitely proved to be of great value to him and to us.

[Павел Дуд]

Лина, Ваша ссылка логически некорректна. Если Буш даже и плох, то почему надо допускать (или приветствовать) некомпетентность Обамы? (Я, впрочем, не считаю Обаму некомпетентным, но это другой разговор).