ПРОСТО О ПОЛИТИКЕ

[Олег Сах]

Так как мы живем при новой новостной политике и каждая ремарка президента США не критикуется СМИ, буду проводить политинформацию. Выводы делайте сами. Президенту Бараку Обаме задали вопрос о судьбе капитана американского сухогруза, на что его реакция была "We're discussing housing market right now". Тема прессконференции была - "Re-finance your mortgage now to help the economy"
Источник: 1010 Wins - новостная радиостанция Большого Нью Йорка.

[Салмаксова]

Capt. Richard Phillips, who was taken hostage by the pirates. He offered himself to them in return for his crew's safety. WHat a guy! The crew fought off the heavily armed pirates. What a bunch of guys (and girls, I hope)! Their employer, MAERSK cargo company, has offered 10 million dollars of their corporate greedy earnings as a ransom for this one guy. WHat a company to work for!

Our empty-suite-in-chief didn't even offer a sentence of support to the captain and his family. He's busy arranging mortages for people who will never ever pay them. What a slimy douchebag!

[Liud-mila]

Just a remark!
Наконец-то появилась тема, где спокойно, "без базара" обсуждается политика, и люди с разными взгляадами без оскорблений друг друга пишут что думают!

Уважаю! (Y)

[Олег Сах]

BBC 19:10 GMT, Tuesday, 7 April 2009 20:10 UK,
Mr Obama thanked Gen Odierno for helping to lead what he said was "a very effective operation" in Iraq.
He
told about 600 US soldiers gathered at the Camp Victory military base
that they had helped Iraq to "stand on its own as a democratic country".
"That is an extraordinary achievement, and for that you have the thanks of the American people," he said.
Жирный текст мой.

[Салмаксова]

So Israel is either in Europe (like Japan is in the West) or Obama's admin is planning to realize the long dream of the Arab world and wipe Israel off the map. Thank you, American Jews, for electing this thing!

Iraq is the SECOND Democracy in the region. But our Dumb-Ass-in-Chief did not major in political geography. He majored in Community Organizing and Fascist Economics 101.

No matter what he does in the Middle East (like pledging $600 million to Gaza) our dwindling Jewish American population will stand firmly behind our Citizen of the World and his Noah's Arc administration. After all, Michelle shows up at some old synagogue in Prague (in that God-awful cardigan), and we go ga-ga over it.

[Алексей Дака]

Why is there a widespread assumption that Obama is anti-jewish and/or anti-Israel? After all, his right-hand-man is his chief of staff Rahm Emanuel.

[Гена Гакд]

WASHINGTON (AP) — Declaring "good news" in the midst of an economic meltdown, President Barack Obama on Thursday urged families to take advantage of near-record low mortgage rates by refinancing their home loans. "We are at a time where people can really take advantage of this," Obama said, seated with a handful of homeowners who have already lowered their bills.
Выступление Президента, мне напоминает бома который стоит с протянутой рукой и просит пожертвования у проходящих мимо людей. Похоже что "Stimulus Plan" постигла таже судьба что и его Бушевского собрата "Bail Out", и неудивительно ведь родители теже самые Bernanke and Paulson. *-)

[Олег Сах]

Президент Обама поклонился по пояс саудовскому королю, на что тот не ответил даже кивком.
***********.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY&feature=related
<!--Session data-->

[Лена Смам]

Олег, я просмотрела несколько раз... король, как раз, кивнул Обаме...
но, ощущения --- неприятные... я не думаю, что мирные переговоры - это жополизтво...

[Роман Тапа]

Обама поклонился по пояс саудовскому королю, на что тот не ответил даже кивком

король более легитимен: у него власть не от потребителей.

[Салмаксова]

2. He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, (like bent over and stuff). To the regime that oppresses women, rejects upwardmobility, segregates among classes, and produces MOST OF THE HIGHJACKERS THAT FLEW OUR PLANES INTO OUR BUILDINGS AND TOOK THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN LIVES!
1. And the number one reason why Obama is anti-Jewish and/or anti-Israel ...
His name is HUSSEIN!!!

[Салмаксова]

7. He pledged $600 million to Gaza "after the devastating effects of the invasion"
6.
Not once did he send his support to the innocent civilians of Israel
who lived (and stil do) under the constant threat of Hamas rockets.
5. He made THE FIRST move of contact Syria and Lybia "to open a dialogue"
4.
He hired Rahm Emanuel as a chief of staff to appease the Jews who are
suckers and softies and will believe anything as long as there's a
boychik who is gainfully employed.
3. He send his wife to the
synagogue in Prague and the Rabbi in Turkey to appease the gullable
American Jews who are suckers for all things Jewish and squeal in
delight at the sight of schwartza shiksa inside Europe's oldest shul

[Салмаксова]

Top Ten Reasons Why Obama is Anti-Israel:
10. He urged Israel to "stop the invasion of Gaza and sit down and have a talk with Hamas"
9. He thinks that there's no more War on Terror
8. He apologized to the MusliM world for mistreating and misunderstanding its constituents

[Алексей Дака]

Oh, now I get it. Whenever Obama does anything pro-jewish it is only to deceive and appease.

By the way, the previous president was also all handshakes and smiles with the Saudis, plus they shared common business interests.

[Олег Сах]

all handshakes and smiles
are not even close to that deep, Cosa Nostra style bow.

[ГАЛИНА МЮТО]

Пока еще да. Власть Верховного Суда пока еще никто не отменял. Если в действиях Обамы будет нарушение Конституции. А пока еще ничего нет. В Конституции легитимность " stimulos package" не оговаривается.

[Гена Гакд]

Я о другом. Сейчас в Штатах монополизируется экономика, банки поглощают банки,интеркомпании разбухают как клопы от поглощения мелких, удивляюсь почему не действует закон о монополиях?
Такое впечетление что капитализму конец, история повернулась *вспять- к феодолизму. (md)

[Роман Тапа]

Можно ли теперишнию экономическую систему в США называть капитализмом?

А зачем? Называть как-то?

[Гена Гакд]

Роман с возвращеньицем. Называть вещи своими именами очень важно, таким образом можно избежать недоразумений и неприятностей. Капитализм это лучшая *экономическая система к которому пришло общество путём эволюции. Феодолизм же *это рабство в котором кучка надорванных магнатов имеют безконтрольную власть над людьми которые им принадлежат или от них полностью зависимы по многим причинам, что повлекло за собой восстания рабов и всевозможных революций Франция,Италия,Германия,Россия тому примеры.

[Анатолий Дкав]

Насчет эволюции надо быть пооккуратней! Нам известны предположения насчет превращения обезьяны в человека а империализма, как высшей стадии капиталлизма - в социализм! Причем путем вооруженного восстания!

[Славик Саж]

За спиной у Обамы конечно много влиятельных "друзей", но я думаю что о смене социального строя в Америке нам пока волноваться рано. Хотя ...

[Олег Сах]

Хорошо, вернемся к поклону. Без Буша и пропаганды, а что такой глубокий поклонище мог означать? Серъезно. Я в потемках.

[Славик Саж]

Может этот поклон по прицепу - опоздал на работу значит уйду домой раньше, т.е. жена обняла королеву, а я поклонюсь королю

[ГАЛИНА МЮТО]

я посмотрела ту видеозапись с поклоном и рукапожатием. Обама среди арабов хочет видно косить под своего. Иначе это я ну никак не могу объяснить. или он преднамеренно хочет использовать тактику Клинтона, договариватся о дешевой нефти с ними.

[Марат Гэмь]

И не о дешевой нефти он с ними договаривался,а о том,что Америка теперь будет хорошей.Так же и перед Медведевым он попрогибался.Показал,что Америка теперь стоит явно недорого,с нами теперь как хочешь можно поступать те, кто отступают и капитулируют, получают не мир, а войну - с непредсказуемым и отвратительным исходом.Еще Обама назвал свою встречу с Медведевым превосходной.Ну и правильно.Хочется верить,что столь же мило пройдет общение с Асадом,Ахмадинеджадом,Уго Чавесом и прочей сволочью (N)

[Роман Тапа]

Гене Горбановскому.
Спасибо.
Называть вещи своими именами очень важно, таким образом можно избежать недоразумений и неприятностей.
А это -- заблуждение.
Если я напишу "собака", то девочки, скорее всего, спросят: "А как её зовут? А она не кусается? А это мальчик или девочка?", а Марат или Натан -- просто обидятся (справедливо), а Олегу, к примеру, будет всё-равно, написал я "собака" или "пассатижи", диагноз получу в любом случае.
По-существу: капитализм в Америке и на Украине отличаются так же, как социализм при Брежневе и Троцком. К чяему тогда термины такие?

[Славик Саж]

(*) (*) (*) Kudos to U.S. Navy Seal snipers (Y) (Y) (Y)
and God Bless America for not living its citizens behind (v)

[Лена Смам]

Сомалийские пираты захватили еще одно судно с украинцамиНа борту захваченного сомалийскими пиратами турецкого судна находятся 8 граждан Украины. Об этом сообщает пресс-служба МИД Украины со ссылкой на посольство Украины в Республике Кения.
***********.mv.org.ua/?news=14956

[Лена Смам]

думаю, что "счастливые" украИнцы будут сейчас просить политического убежища.....
ибо, по последним данным коренного населения на Украине полный "капец"... (v)

[Марат Гэм]

Вернемся к нашим баранам.Вот Иран уже пожаловался ООН на Израиль,потому что как они сообщили,это незаконные высокомерные угрозы Израиля,разрушить инфроструктуру ядерной промышленности.Посол Ирана в ООН пишет,что это возмутительная угроза применения террористического насилия против суверенной страны и члена ООН не только демонстрирует агрессивный воинствующий характер криминального сионистского режима,но и представляет собой грубейшее нарушение принципов международного права.То есть эти ублюдки еще имеют наглость называть террористами Израиль (N)

[Роман Тапа]

Вот с какой целью навуходоносоры пересказывают жёлтую прессу? Оно и так из любого канала... струится...

[Славик Саж]

Обама потратил за свои первые 100 дней в офисе больше чем Буш потратил на Ирак, Афганистан, и Катрину вместе взятые
Эт так, для поддержания разговора

[Алексей Дака]

Ну, ну. Цифры можно привести?
На сколько я помню, Буш раздал 700 млрд банкам в прошлом Октябре, и эти деньги уже напечетаны и ушли из федерального резерва. Кроме того, цена "войны с террором" в перспективе, с учётом денег на лечение/реабилитацию раненых составит около 2-х триллионов
********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War
Обама пока одобрил "стимулус" на 787 млрд, которые будут размазаны на 10 лет, т.е. большая часть этих денег пока ещё не потрачена.

[Славик Саж]

Sure, here you go.
********blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/
Here is another one, less official, blog type
********tattoo-gypsy.blogspot.com/2009/03/spending-obama-vs-bush.html
Actually, just google "obama spending vs bush spending"
I just picked first two. There are plenty more

[Алексей Дака]

Heritage Foundation не вляется нейтральным (беспристрастным) источником информации. К тому же они рассуждают о возможных будущих тратах Обамы, которые быть может, в будущем, превысят траты Буша.
Обама потратил за свои первые 100 дней в офисе больше чем Буш потратил на Ирак, Афганистан, и Катрину вместе взятые
Уже потратил?

[Славик Саж]

Алексей,
1. Если вам не нравится Heritage Foundation смотрите следующий сайт в google search. Их там много. Но на этом Heritage сайте написано:
Many Obama defenders in the comments are claiming that the numbers above do not include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush years. They most certainly do. While Bush did fund the wars through emergency supplementals (not the regular budget process), that spending did not simply vanish. It is included in the numbers above. Also, some Obama defenders are claiming the graphic above represents biased Heritage Foundation numbers. While we stand behind the numbers we put out 100%, the numbers, and the graphic itself, above are from the Washington Post.
2. Уже потратил?
Если я выписал чек и отправил его своей utility company, то теоретически деньги пока на моём счету, но нас самом деле их через 7 дней уже не будет.

[Алексей Дака]

Если я выписал чек и отправил его своей utility company, тотеоретически деньги пока на моём счету, но нас самом деле их через 7дней уже не будет.
Вячеслав, покажите мне utility company которая выписывает счёт на 10 лет вперед и требует немедленной предоплаты. Ваша аналогия неприемлима.
Что касается Heritage Foundation, то тут следует отметить, что они относят расходы Обамы на продолжение "войны с террором" к расходам Обамы, хотя по справедливости их следует отнести к расходам Буша. Картинка же из Washington Post иллюстрирует будущий дефицит бюджета, исходя только из запланированных расходов и не учитывая увеличения в доходной части. А здесь Обама как раз планирует а: отмену налоговых льгот для миллионеров, введенных Бушем, б: реформу healthcare что косвенно увеличит налоговые сборы за счет снижения deduction.

[Славик Саж]

Алексей,
ваш аргумент заключается в том что деньги яко-бы ещё не потрачены. Мой пример с чеком вполне нормальный. Если чек выписан то денег уже нет. Вы или просто успокаиваете себя или надеетесь что кто-то остановит это беспредельное разбазаривание денег и тогда вы действительно может окажитесь правы - Обама потратит меньше чем Буш.
По поводу продолжения "войны с террором" - это копейки по сравнению со всем остальным

[Алексей Дака]

Мой аргумент скорее в том, что бушевские 700 млрд на байлаут для банков были потрачены за считаные месяцы. Обамовские 787 млрд на "стимулус" будут потрачены втечение 10 лет. Согласитесь, что скорость растрат Буша на порядок выше.

[Славик Саж]

Senator Ted Kennedy has died today.
While I might disagree with some of his political views, he was, no doubt, an American patriot.
R.I.P.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Actually this is a very interesting development (the death of Ted Kennedy-пусть ему земля будет пухом), now dems are left with only 59 votes...
In 2004, whenJohn Kerry was running for president, and Romney was the governor,democrats in MA passed a law that the governor could no longer appointa senator (in case of resignation), and they must have specialelections within 145 days...
now it's biting them in theirbehind, because they don't want to be w/out a senator for five months,and are thinking about changing the law again...now tell me ifdemocrats love democracy?? (tr)

[Мария]

Вытащила эту тему из небытия, так как нашла на интернете следующее :
********tinyurl.com/yfgl8nx
Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering upthe Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic CrisisHow can one argue that Democrats did not play a major role in the current economic crisis?

[Мария]

Вытащила эту тему из небытия, так как нашла на интернете следующее :
********tinyurl.com/yfgl8nx
Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering upthe Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic CrisisHow can one argue that Democrats did not play a major role in the current economic crisis?

[Мария]

Sending a Message with the Census
I haven't gotten my letter from the Census Bureau yet asking me to make sure I fill out the questionnaire. But when I do fill it out, I'll use it to send a message.
Fully one-quarter of the space on this year's form is taken up with questions of race and ethnicity, which are clearly illegitimate and none of the government's business (despite the New York Times' assurances to the contrary on today's editorial page). So until we succeed in building the needed wall of separation between race and state, I have a proposal. Question 9 on the census form asks "What is Person 1's race?" (and so on, for other members of the household). My initial impulse was simply to misidentify my race so as to throw a monkey wrench into the statistics; I had fun doing this on the personal-information form my college required every semester, where I was a Puerto Rican Muslim one semester, and a Samoan Buddhist the next.

[Мария]

But lying in this constitutionally mandated process is wrong. Really — don't do it.
Instead, we should answer Question 9 by checking the last option — "Some other race" — and writing in "American." It's a truthful answer but at the same time is a way for ordinary citizens to express their rejection of unconstitutional racial classification schemes. In fact, "American" was the plurality ancestry selection for respondents to the 2000 census in four states and several hundred counties.
So remember: Question 9 — "Some other race" — "American". Pass it on.
By Mark Krikorian

[Светлана Гэмм]

in their own words..(ch) dems against dems..
********video.foxnews.com/v/4089311/the-one-thing-38

[Леонид]

IS THIS THE CHANGE YOU VOTED FOR?
From JFK and Camelot.
TO
B.H.O and Lies-A-Lot.
From Washington who never told a Lie.
TO
B.H.O who never told the truth.
From Ask what you can do for your Country.
TO
What you WILL DO for B.H.O!

[Mike]

it's CENSUS... the whole idea of it is to get as much information as possible.. i see no harm of asking about the race or any other personal characteristics.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I don't see why it's important for the government to know what race or religion the people who are poor, for example ... or even their sexual orientation ... or now they'll start implementing policies according to the data collected: 10% of the homosexual population are below the poverty level, what kind of policies would help eliminate that??
if you ask me - idiotic..if American citizens are having problems, how is it important if they are christian, black or lesbians?? it's all political pondering and race-bating..

[Шурик Кай]

Светлана с вами иногда трудно понять или вы шутите
или просто тупик? Не ужели это так трудно? На пример
если есть дети, то наверняка школам нужно больше денег.
Например если больше людей которые говорят по испански
то нужно добавить переводчика в государственных учереждениях
и так далее и тому прочее.
Это же не советский союз ;)

[Лина]

The first census was taken in 1790, under Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson... isn't questioning the actions of the founding fathers tantamount to sacrilege?

[Светлана Гэмм]

Маш, поставь этот ролик еще раз..как раз в тему..;-)
is anyone against taking census??..why does the government need to know people's race?? to let them feel victims or for pandering..

[Mike]

collecting statistical information about the population of a country as a whole ( aside from just the headcount ) has an enormous number of uses.
on race, here is from FAQ
Asked since 1790. Race is key to implementing many federal laws and is needed to monitor compliance with the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. State governments use the data to determine congressional, state and local voting districts. Race data are also used to assess fairness of employment practices, to monitor racial disparities in characteristics such as health and education and to plan and obtain funds for public services.

[Khramaya]

Sveta, if you were reading results of, say, German census, wouldn't it be curious to find out how many Jews or Turkish immigrants are on welfare there compared to German -born.
I want to know similar stuff here...
and politicians use all this stuff for districting, btw

[Светлана Гэмм]

I still don't see the reason why the gov't wants to know the race in the post slavery/civil-rights America..how is it important what race the people are who are on welfare, and what can the government do specifically to help people of that race as opposed to just helping to people on welfare?? give me one example where it would be crucial for the government to know the race of the electorate..

[Mike]

without using too much imagination - medical studies..
looking at the occurrences of specific deceases within different population group and projecting the risk/costs whatever at the population as a whole..

[Мария]

I only see it's importance for politicians. Democrats always benefit from having more minorities in their districts.
The results from this census will be used for redisctricting. Duh:-|
Because of these government policies we will never enter a post-racial society. :-|

[Шурик Кайцэ]

Because of these government policies we will never enter a post-racial society. :-|
***
Do you mean like Gay Marriage?

[Мария]

Or, they should just honestly proclaim that having a post-racial society is impossible, and stop the BS. ( labeling white people as racists if they refer to someone by their race8oI ).

[Mike]

The results from this census will be used for redisctricting. Duh:-|
just like our founding fathers intended in the constitution.. or we are so "constitutional" only when we feel like it?

[Лина]

the information is also used by sociologists to analyze trends, correlations...

[Mike]

who is redistricting based on race??? redistricting is always based on total population changes.

[Khramaya]

there is tons of tricky politics in redistricting...take my district, for example, the way it looks on the map, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, it includes an affluent suburb and then descends 100+miles south into a total rural area and then into Corning, a mixed population small city...it is very large for campaining, populations are worlds apart on many levels. Always was a very frustrating district for politicians - affluent suburb tends to go democratic, rural area - conservative, and now we have Eric Massa:-D . They constantly are trying to change it....

[Натан Мэвэ]

"just like our founding fathers intended in the constitution.. or we are so "constitutional" only when we feel like it?"
Mike, The Constitution only mentions "enumerating" or counting population every 10 years. There is NO LAW that allows Federal Government to inquire for Census purposes about person's race, age, marital status, how much they make, what time thy go to work and a myriad of other intrusive and frankly unlawful questions.
At some point this will be challenged in the courts. The only reason it hasn't to date is because if you really do not want to answer these questions, the Feds may send a person to your house once or twice, but after that they would usually leave you alone.
But if they try to prosecute someone based on refusal to answer Census questions - expect court challenges.

[Mike]

Natan, there is no law that forbids them to ask these questions either.. If you don't want to answer them you don't have to.
Politicizing census is about as retarded as i have seen..

[Светлана Гэмм]

he-he..it is retarded..are we still allowed to use the R word?? (ch) but that's exactly what the Obama administration has tried to do by moving the census from the Commerce Dept. jurisdiction to White House..

[Mike]

well.. if someone does not like my use of words they can always tell me to go fuck myself.. :)

[Шурик Кайц]

Mike,
there is also another expression..
don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go (ch) (B)

[Олег Сах]

So. It became perfectly clear that our president is the left wing socialist that some of us feared him to be. He made it clear with making Health Care Bill his priority, losing allies, dooming Democratic party, and acting like an absolute Soros/ Ayers puppet. I would like to hear from people who voted for him. How is this visionary measuring up while your husband is about to loose his job and Pedro from South of the Border will get free medical care paid by your dollars?

[Mike]

Олег, i know 2 people in real life who voted for BHO... they are both embarrassed now..

[Мария]

Шурик, не пойму вас, если вы не любите , чтобы вас контролировал бюрократ, ( или всё-таки тайно мечтаете? Вы наверное испытываете сладостные ощущения в очереди
в DMV?) почему вы поддерживаете Obamacare?(dt)

[Олег Сах]

Shurik, do explain. We are in the middle of the worst recession, the unemployment is double of what it averaged under Bush, RE market is the dumps. And you, Shurik, think that spending 1.3 trillion dollars to offer healthcare to people who decided not to purchase health insurance is a right move?

[Олег Сах]

Mike, I also have a friend who voted for Obama, as well. He is not embarrassed , but rather grossly disappointed.

[Мария]

I never make fun of my friends who voted for BHO and regret noe, but rather quietly rejoice что они прозрели!(fr)

[Шурик Кайцэ]

Мария, я не помню когда последний раз ждал в DMV очереди.
Вы же можете сделать appt online?

[Шурик Кай]

We are in the middle of the worst recession, the unemployment is double of what it averaged under Bush!
***
you mean caused by George Bush?

[Mike]

yep, George W Bush personally causes all the problems in the world, lets move on... my progressive compadre.. Obama has this "issue" covered.

[Шурик Кайц]

Do you think that administration didn't know banks were giving money away and didn't stop it? It was mainly unregulated greedy bankers seeking profits and Freedie and Fanny insuring them.
Goldman packaging it and selling them to states and counties ;)
everyone was happy. I bet they knew where it will take us but no one wanted to stop the train while everyone was making $$.
Paulson helped his buddies with 1.3 Trillion of $$ to stop the ab bis. Now we don't have the money to help people who need health care because those greedy bankers and others got all the money.

[Шурик Кайц]

Прибавьте к этому ещё войну в Ираке и афганистане. Сколько денег выбросили?
Теперь Иран имеет ядерное оружие, но средств на борьбу с ними нет. Я считаю
что Иран более опасен чем ирак и афганистан!

[Мария]

********tinyurl.com/yfgl8nx
ShockingVideo Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis
How can one argue that Democrats did not play a major role in the current economic crisis?
Шурик, вот здесь ответы на ваш вопрос, кто виноват в кризисе. Посмотрите, не поленитесь.(v)

[Mike]

for freddy and fanny i thin Dodd and Franks ( the 2 idiots responsible for those monsters ) should do a hara-kiri.. end their silly lives in a honorable way.

[Шурик Кайц]

Шурик, вот здесь ответы на ваш вопрос, кто виноват в кризисе. Посмотрите, не поленитесь
**
Мне нечего смотреть эти видео ролики. Республиканцы были у власти
сколько лет? Не ужели если это всё правда они не хотели это поменять?
****
The problem one hand was giving money to the other! So everyone was happy. Of course if you can make money out of thin air, wouldn't you package it and sell it?

[Мария]

Шурик, так вы ничего не уяснили из этого ролика? Tам же специально крупным шрифтом всё расписано. Республиканцы хотели закрутить гайки потуже на Фрэдди с Фэнни, а демократы им не дали. Ещё и в расизме обвинили. ( Ну как же, Frank Raines is black, he can do do wrong).

[Шурик Кай]

Мария,
республиканцы были у власти 8 лет. Чего то трудно поверить что за 8 лет
ничего не сделали (N)

[Шурик Кайцэм]

Fannie and Freddie alone did not cause the financial problems. They provided the mortgages, AIG insured it,
Goldman packaged it and sold it on the open market.
It was combination of factors and of course you can blame the democrats and republicans in complacency.

[Мария]

First step in the right direction(Y)
AFP Praises House Republicans for Banning Earmarks. TheHouse Republican Conference voted today to ban the use of earmarks byits members. Americans for Prosperity has been educating and mobilizingthe public to fight against pork-barrel earmarks for years, including anationwide RV tour called the Ending Earmarks Express that traveledmore than 15,000 miles in 2006 visiting the 50 most egregious earmarksin 38 states.

[Мария]

“We congratulate Leader Boehner and the House Republicans for taking this bold step,” said AFP Vice President for Policy Phil Kerpen. “Our foundation’s recent study confirmed earmarking works all too well at buying votes for re-election, so this decision to refrain from earmarking took real political courage.
“The American people are tired of hearing about pork projects and having their taxes raised to pay for them. Even House Democrats are starting to realize this – but their ban on earmarks for corporations allows for earmarking as usual by state and local governments, public authorities, and universities. The idea that earmarking is somehow virtuous when it rewards government entities for taxpayer-funded lobbying is ridiculous.

[Мария]

The House Republican Conference’s historic decision to put a unilateralend to earmarking is the biggest, most concrete step away from corruptearmarking-as-usual ever taken, and they deserve enormous credit forputting principle ahead of politics.”

[Натан Мэвэ]

"Fannie and Freddie alone did not cause the financial problems. They provided the mortgages, AIG insured it, Goldman packaged it and sold it on the open market. It was combination of factors and of course you can blame the democrats and republicans in complacency."

You're forgetting the one single event that actually WAS responsible for all of the above listed "dominoes" to fall. Not suprisingly, it was not any one economic mistake, made by any of the big players.
It was a POLITICAL decision made by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Yet again, history proves that whenever a government interferes with the normal market forces of supply and demand bad things happen.
The name of this particular "bad thing" is CRA. Also known as "Community Reinvestment Act". Signed into law by Carter administration. Expanded by Clinton administration. And ignored and allowed to fester out of control by Bush administration.

[Лина]

I know this isn't the first time I'm posting this, but some amongst us just refuse to accept facts.
" Just the idea that a lending crisis created from 2004 to 2007 was caused by a 1977 law is silly. But it’s even more ridiculous when you consider that most subprime loans were made by firms that aren’t subject to the CRA. University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. As former Fed Governor Ned Gramlich said in an August, 2007, speech shortly before he passed away: “In the subprime market where we badly need supervision, a majority of loans are made with very little supervision. It is like a city with a murder law, but no cops on the beat.” "

[Лина]

"Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses, according to a recent study by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley"

[Лина]

" Finally, keep in mind that the Bush administration has been weakening CRA enforcement and the law’s reach since the day it took office. The CRA was at its strongest in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration, a period when subprime loans performed quite well. It was only after the Bush administration cut back on CRA enforcement that problems arose, a timing issue which should stop those blaming the law dead in their tracks. The Federal Reserve, too, did nothing but encourage the wild west of lending in recent years. It wasn’t until the middle of 2007 that the Fed decided it was time to crack down on abusive pratices in the subprime lending market."

[Лина]

" Better targets for blame in government circles might be the 2000 law which ensured that credit default swaps would remain unregulated, the SEC’s puzzling 2004 decision to allow the largest brokerage firms to borrow upwards of 30 times their capital and that same agency’s failure to oversee those brokerage firms in subsequent years as many gorged on subprime debt. (Barry Ritholtz had an excellent and more comprehensive <FONT color=#007cd5>survey of how Washington contributed to the crisis
in this week’s Barron’s.)"

[Натан Мэвэ]

Lina,
I recall that we had an extensive argument over this. I don't intent to re-create it again. Suffice it to say that you will have your opinion and I will have mine. And we can agree to disagree.

All I am going to add (and this will be my last post on this subject) is that the primary REASON why many of these financial institutions were even able to make these "unsupervised" loans was because they knew full well that they themselves will not have to carry these unpayable loans on their books. All they need to do is to skim a little bit of the top in loan origination fees and then turn the actual loan over to one of those "motrgage packaging" companies like Merrill Lynch or Bear Sterns, who in turn would sell it as a "derivative" (insured by AIG, no less) to a government guarranteed outfit like Fanny Mae or Freddy Mac.

[Натан Мэвэ]

This sceme was very profitable and worked as long as the real estate prices kept going up. In reality this was nothing more than a pyramid, akin to Bernie Madoff, multiplied hundreds of times.


Everyone, who participated in this scam, from bankers, to insurers to bond rating companies to real estate brokers are responsible for this collapse. But it was ENABLED by the Federal Governement by providing easy liquidity for these loans.

In the past no banker in his right mind would give you the money for 30 years if he didn't think he can get that money back. This time, bankers didn't have to worry about getting their money back because it wasn't THEIR MONEY. It was ours.

[Шурик Кайц]

No matter who you blame, who do you think profited from the greatest financial crisis? Do you think I did?
No way. The rich profited not the middle class or the poor. My 401k and my ira suffered. Besides the fact we will have no social security money left when we retire, now even our 401k and Ira will suffer as well. You can thank the rich and the powerful!

[Шурик Кайц]

Finally, keep in mind that the Bush administration has beenweakening CRA enforcement and the law’s reach since the day it tookoffice.
***
yes!

[Олег Сах]

Shurik, how did rich profited from the crisis? Stop throwing accusations around.

[Шурик Кайцэ]

Oleg,
isn't interesting that soon after the TARP money was given out
all the banks that had no money left but what they owe, started to show record profits? I can show you the first qtr 2009 results for Goldman Sachs, B of A, Wells Fargo etc. Manipulation on Wall Street where the Financial firms pushed the stock market to 20 year low to force the mutual fund redemption. Who do you think lost money there? How about your home value? Did you make money?

[Лина]

All I am going to add (and this will be my last post on this subject) is that the primary REASON why many of these financial institutions were even able to make these "unsupervised" loans was because they knew full well that they themselves will not have to carry these unpayable loans on their books.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which institutions? Not the CRA banks. "Compared to other lenders in their communities, banks making loans
in their CRA assessment areas (CRA Banks) were less likely to make a high cost loan, charged less for the high cost loans they did make, and were substantially more likely to eschew the secondary market and retain high cost and other loans in portfolio. Foreclosure rates were also lower in metropolitan areas with proportionately greater numbers of bank branches."

***********.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS135259+07-Jan-2008+BW20080107

[Шурик Кайцэм]

In addition, remember how they fed or Timothy Geistner re evaluated the debt? so instead of being valued up to market they
counted the debt above the market value? So they bank were able to sell the bad loans and bad real estate deals at market value and get more money. For example if you try to go to the bank and ask to get your loan reduced you wouldn't be able to do it or do it as easily as the bank were able to do it. So the rich and the powerful profited on the crysis and we ended up holding the bag.

[Натан Мэвэ]

The article you're citing is relying on the study conducted by Traiger & Hinckley LLP Study.
Here is a statement from the web page of Traiger & Hinckley LLP:
"Traiger & Hinckley LLP offers a wide range of services to assist banks with their Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) responsibilities. Partner Warren Traiger is a nationally recognized CRA authority, who has testified on CRA before Congress and the federal banking regulators. For over fifteen years, Mr. Traiger has counseled retail, wholesale, and special purpose institutions throughout the country on CRA compliance and has represented banks before regulatory agencies and in court."

Unbiased, objective source indeed.

[Мария]

Shurik, don't you realize that you contradict yourself all the time?
You are upset that your 401K is not performing well, and in the same time want to lynch all the rich and powerful as if they are not the ones whose companies are invested into by your 401K.(md)

[Алексей Пэтк]

A nice (and absolutely correct) opinion about Fox (Entertainment) News
***********.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031102523.html?referrer=emailarticle

[Светлана Гэмм]

:-) Howell Raines is a former executive editor of the New York Times and the author of "The One That Got Away: A Memoir."
mmm..and people from the NYT know what the integrity and journalistic standards are?? ... obviously people who read such material written by someone who work for an organization that's been discredited not once, but numerous times, have no idea what the journalistic standards should be...the NYT is just jealous of the success..but the American people are not stupid, you lie to them, and they stop reading it or even watching liberal mouthpieces..

[Светлана Гэмм]

It is true that, after 14 months of Fox's relentless pounding ofPresident Obama's idea of sweeping reform, the latest Gallup poll showsopinion running 48 to 45 percent against the current legislation.

funny.. because Obama can't sell to people something they don'twant, it has to be Fox's fault..how many views Fox has even with allits success?? 5, 10 million...there are much more people in the countrythan that...

[Шурик Кайц]

Расскажу вам одну мансу.
Вчера пошел с моими друзьями в Бистро
Гамбринус, в Сан Франциско. Глассный
Русский паб. Сидел с моим другом Скоттом
и его женой. Говорили про жизнь пили пиво
с раками! Смотрю у Скотта зуба переднего нет
и спрашиваю, Скотт что с зубом, у тебя вроде есть
страховка? Он мне знаешь даже после страховки
надо будет платить $800. Я когда в Мехико поеду летом
поченю. Там дешевле и доктора лучше.

[Мария]

Зато на Гамбринус у бедного Скотта деньги есть. И на билет на самолёт в Мексику.

[Мария]

NO Dear Maria, I said the rich and powerful caused the collapse.
With this I agree with you ! Nancy Pelosi is one of the richest and most popwerful women in America. Diane Feinstein is a millionaire too, so is Barack Obama.

[Шурик Кайц]

Yes, Maria women and blacks caused all the problem in USA.
just like Adolf G. used to say that Jews caused all the problems in the world.

[Мария]

Let's think about some more rich and powerful who caused all the problems in US, including rich and powerful women ( but I think Pelosi is the most rich and powerful).
A lot of Hollywood characters come to mind...
Let's see, James Cameron made $500 mil on one movie...

[Мария]

Эх, Шурик, вы наверное были любимым учеником у ваших преподавателй Марксизма-Ленинизма и политэкономии.(ch)

[Khramaya]

i would love to hear comments on this recent Texas Board of Education ruling:
********news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100312/ap_on_re_us/us_texas_schools_social_studies

[Mike]

i still stand one the fact that those guilty the most in this crisis is american people..
those who over-leveraged themselves, buying homes they could never afford.. taking all the credit card debt..
everyone is responsible for their own well being.
those of us who lived shrewed life only benefited from the collapse.

[Khramaya]

Mike, I agree totally that everyone is responsible for their own finances, but - how is it that those who overspent collectively responsible for banking collapses? I really don't understand this well at all, aren't banks responsible for screening their applicants based on their paying ability, history, and shouldn't lend to those who can't pay? I always thought , for example, that I shouldn't buy a house valued more then X2 of my early income. And never would... But people were allowed to buy much more expensive properties...

[Светлана Гэмм]

Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christianinfluences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the separation of church and state.Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic,"rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study thedecline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of thegold standard.
finally the kids, at least in Texas, will learn something relevant about our history and heritage, and not the liberal interpretation of it..way to go Texas!! (Y) (Y) (Y)
btw, does any of the "enlightened" liberals here know how this expression "separation of church and state" came about??
It was used by T Jefferson for the exact opposite purpose as the "intellectual" left has us believe - to protect churches from the government's influence - preaching something the government want them to..

[Шурик Кай]

in reminds me of this tv show I recently watched on Russian News TV that they will be teaching orthodox religion in most Russian schools now but because they don't have enough rabbi's but in large cities they will not going to be offering any Jewish or Buddhist studies outside. That's exactly where they are coming to in Tx. Way to go!

[Mike]

Julia,
Banks are responsible for their own collapse, of course!! People are responsible for their own defaults..
But the crisis itself is a combination of over-leveraging by everyone. However for those who were not leveraged crisis was in fact a golden opportunity

[Шурик Кайцэ]

not true mike,
tell that to millions of unemployed and
what about those of us who lost 401k and IRA
values?

[Kim Lambert]

not true mike,
tell that to millions of unemployed and
what about those of us who lost 401k and IRA
values?
----------------------------

Yeah! Right!
8oI8oI8oI8oI8oI

[Шурик Кайц]

Майк, а что вы скажите тем у кого была работа
а теперь нет? Что их работа было тоже переувеличена?
Я знаю тех людей которые всегда могут заработать
на не удаче других, это и есть капитализм. Я не пишу
что капитализм это всегда плохо. Но есть вещи которые
нужно регулировать лучшую сторону.

[Олег Сах]

Conservatives beat back multiple attempts to include hip-hop as an example of a significant cultural movement.
In addition to learning the Bill of Rights, the board specified a reference to the Second Amendment right to bear arms in a section about citizenship in a U.S. government class.
whether students should be required to explain the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its impact on global politics (they will); and whether former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir should be required learning (she will).
Another amendment deleted a requirement that sociology students "explain how institutional racism is evident in American society."

[Олег Сах]

Julia, I don't know. I really tried to look at the issues mentioned in that article and have a tingle of protest, but couldn't find one. I am the one opposed to any kind of religious, white supremacist or prude values taught in schools but could not find any.
Kill me but I can't find anything wrong with these statements.

[Шурик Кайцэ]

Julia, I don't know. I really tried to look at the issues mentioned inthat article and have a tingle of protest, but couldn't find one.
***
of course you couldn&39;t doubt it. We just need more rednecks carrying guns in their holsters. I guess we don't have enough people getting killed!
I can also imagine johny reading about golda meir and getting a A+ on his final. Maybe if they could learn Algebra it would be a lot more helpful? Did any of you have kids in high schools?

[Мария]

Какой ужос! Детям придётся учить Билл о Правах! Нарушение прав детей! И вместо того, чтобы учить как меньшинства угнетаются в Америке, им придётся учить Конституцию. Безобразие!
:-D

[Мария]

I really don't understand this well at all, aren't banks responsiblefor screening their applicants based on their paying ability, history,and shouldn't lend to those who can't pay? I always thought , forexample, that I shouldn't buy a house valued more then X2 of my earlyincome. And never would... But people were allowed to buy much moreexpensive properties...
Julia, now it's my turn to say Oy, Vey!(md)
It appears that you are not aware how the banks were pushed to lend to minorities and disadvantaged on the threat of being labeled racist.

[Шурик Кайцэ]

Мария дети уже это учат в Мидл скул. Зачем им учить про Израильско палестинский конфликт?

[Шурик Кайц]

The banks were forced by the republican administration to lend the money to the poor or they would be called racists!
tonight I will write a special apology to George Bush Jr

[Шурик Кайц]

Ira,
don't worry she will find a few democrats for you right away who were responsible. But the poor Bush administration was powerless for 8 years because they were forced to go into Iraq to fight Saddam Hussein because he hid the weapons of mass distruction in the desert.

[Светлана Гэмм]

hmm...the good question would be who is responsible for the crisis in CA?? because as far as I know Bush was rarely there..(ch)

[Шурик Кайцэ]

why isolate california? Wasn't this world crisis? Our Governor is after all a republican is it not?

[Светлана Гэмм]

As most of you know - California has the biggest budget crisis in the nation..what's it - over 6 billion?? .. and it's not going away anytime soon..don't you, guys, have the greatest minds in the country?? how come they've allowed it to happen for so long???? don't they know how to cover spendings???????

[Светлана Гэмм]

Our forecast of California’s General Fund revenues and expendituresshows that the state must address a General Fund budget problem of$20.7 billion between now and the time the Legislature enacts a 2010–11state budget plan. The budget problem consists of a $6.3 billionprojected deficit for 2009–10 and a $14.4 billion gap between projectedrevenues and spending in 2010–11. Addressing this large shortfall willrequire painful choices—on top of the difficult choices the Legislaturemade earlier this year.
***********.lao.ca.gov/2009/bud/fiscal_outlook/fiscal_outlook_111809.aspx

[Мария]

It escapes moonbats that the most liberal states are in the biggest жопа-s(H) , because once the liberals start the war on the rich, the rich leave the states, and the libs don't have their money anymore to pay luxurious public employees pension and benefits.
It's useless to explain to them this basics. They think that the money for welfare comes from some unanimated object ( like "merilla" in the Barbie Mermaid story" movie(H) )

[Алексей Пэт]

Yes-yes! Most rich people live in such conservative stronghold states as Tennessee, Oklahoma and Arkansas...

[Mike]

Майк, а что вы скажите тем у кого была работа
а теперь нет? Что их работа было тоже переувеличена?
Я знаю тех людей которые всегда могут заработать
на не удаче других, это и есть капитализм. Я не пишу
что капитализм это всегда плохо. Но есть вещи которые
нужно регулировать лучшую сторону.

I say tough luck.. i wish them all the best in looking for a new one.. or is it government responsibility to provide people with work?
You have a strange definition of capitalism.. directly from my 1984 textbook... i wonder...

[Олег Сах]

Shurik, here are the rules of the game: in order to discuss ANYTHING, you need to be acquainted in the least with the subject. We already had people shouting negative remarks for any reason, just because they felt like it. They were banned. The article sites number of issues to which any normal parent should not subject. At least I didn't find any points that I was against. No God, no Holocaust Denial, No Secessionist/Anti-North agenda. No Racism. No Pro-Slavery.
Another amendment deleted a requirement that sociology students "explain how institutional racism is evident in American society."
To be continued...

[Олег Сах]

If you, Shurik, want your child to enter the world with the view of the world mentioned in the highlighted sentence , I pity you. Now, when our society is moving rapidly towards the color-blind future envisioned by MLK Jr. you want to side with hate-mongers who want to preach America The Racist to our children?
Next time you want to use the term "redneck", read the article, then write. Напоминает гнев советских трудящихся: "Мы Пастернака не читали, но осуждаем!"

[Шурик Кай]

Shurik, here are the rules of the game: in order to discuss ANYTHING,
**
goodbye

[Светлана Гэмм]

Liberals are just mad at the fact that they don't have the monopoly in setting up the schools curriculum anymore..finally people are waking up and start changing decades long brain-washing of our kids with the liberal view of America...they say kids better learn algebra than about Golda Meir, and in his own state kids rate 49th in math..so, Meir must not be reason..(ch)
and God forbid we tell our kids it's our constitutional right to own guns..must be much more fun to tell kids how FDR "pulled" us out of the Great Depression .. or not..

[Гера Така]

Oabama is planning to roll out a new program to ovehaul the "No child left behind"...

.. everywhere... everywhere...

[Khramaya]

I actually wanted my kids to know we have constitutional right to own a gun and to form their own opinion on whether it's good for society , and to develop a complex view of pros/cons of this, comparing statistics on crime in different societies with different gun regulations. This, IMHO is a good way of introducing kids to those societal issues, and helps them to develop some independent thinking.

[Светлана Гэмм]

agree..why don't we tell the kids that the DC 30yr long complete weapon ban has increased crime rate in the city by 300 fold, and that most crimes are committed by illegal weapons, not the law-abiding gun owners..

[Мария]

It's a breath of fresh air to converse with open-minded democrats like Julia (as oppose to ultra-left soviets) (ch)

[Олег Сах]

And for that reason, I scared off Shurik. Julia & Aleksey substantiate their points, bring interesting information to discussion. I always look for intelligent, well informed people from the other side. Mostly, I get "Буш - дурак" types.
Julia, you asked group's opinions on the Texas Board article. We gave them to you. What's yours?

[Славик Саж]

Actually Ira, Oleg frequently stood up to ultra-right members who spoke mostly in slogans and scared quite a few of them away.
Come to think of it, none of the "Marchiladze era" republicans are here. They are still on site, I see them in other groups, but not here.

[Олег Сах]

"Slavik" went back to his planet. What you see here is his ghost, which, as you know don't cast shadows and don't blink, apparently.

[Khramaya]

Julia, you asked group's opinions on the Texas Board article. We gave them to you. What's yours?
- i will, later tonight

[Светлана Гэмм]

300 fold? this number sounds wrong.. please sight sources.
yeah, it is wrong..got carried away there..just got from the top of my head, remember looking up numbers few years back..but the point is gun control bans don't work..it actually makes it easier for the criminals to commit crimes because they know their victims are disarmed and are unable to protect themselves..interestingly that after the DC ban was overturned as unconstitutional in 2007, the crime rate went down slightly, not up as the supporters claimed..

[Мария]

And by the way, Shurik decided to say goodbye himself. Nobody was forcing him out. (D)

[Светлана Гэмм]

an opinion about the Texas Ed Board decision..

********tinyurl.com/yjxswr8

Is the Texas Board of Education Conservative -- or Honest? by Suzanne Venker

[Khramaya]

so, I was asked what I think of this Texas board of Ed revamping of Soc.sci curriculum.
my major problem ( just based on the AP article) is with this paragraph:
"heralding "American exceptionalism" and the U.S. free enterprise system, suggesting it thrives best absent excessive government intervention."
Why do we want to teach children exceptionalism?
Who said we are exceptional? Why not just stress value of hard work and pioneer spirit this country was built on?
we will definitely stop being exceptional if things go as they are now, especially with basic science education ... ..
I totally agree with free enterprise system, but isn't it ideological to state to children about government non-intervention?
Why not just give comparisons of different types of economic systems in the world and then have a debate about pros/cons?
I need to read more on details of Texas decision, will comment more as read along....

[Олег Сах]

Julia, I would also find that particular way of describing American model suspicious and not classroom worthy, however, the whole article wreaked of left wing leaning (unlike Atlantic that we both love and read). Starting with a title, down to every non-factual sentence it was a s biased as Chris Matthews in early November of 08. I can quote, if needed. So, I don't really believe the author when he/she describes teachings of American exceptionalism. Otherwise, every issue, from hip-hop not being music history material, to racism not being deeply rooted in today's society, to teaching history of Israel, I agree with their stance.

[Светлана Гэмм]

what's wrong with teaching kids about American exceptionalism??Probably people who have no clue where this concept came from wouldonly object to it..
American exceptionalism refers to the theory that the United States occupies a special niche among the nations of the world in terms of its national credo, historical evolution, political and religious institutions and unique origins. The roots of the belief are attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville,who claimed that the then-50-year-old United States held a special place among nations, because it was a country of immigrants and the first modern democracy.
A Frenchman, not a patriotic cowboy, made that observation..something to think about..

[Мария]

Света, браво!(Y) American exceptionalism is a notion that too many people do not understand. It must be taught at school!

[Гера Така]

(Y)(Y)(Y)
People do not understand American Exceptionalism, as well as the concept of Constitutional Republic, the nation of Laws.

[Khramaya]

you know what I noticed?
and, please, correct me if I'm wrong:
when conservatives discuss politics and policy, they are (almost) never critical of conservatively- sounding, originated or minded politics . When democrats discuss - they are very critical of both liberal or conservative politics, it's either too conservative, or too liberal or not liberal enough for them:-) . And they don't give "blanket" approvals to stuff just because it comes from the "left", while with the "right" it's almost like "партия сказала Надо, комсомол ответил - есть!":-D
Why is it?
To me it means that the Left is more inclined towards critical thinking, while Right - towards tribal mentality. Not all, but many?
But, again, I could be wrong...

[Светлана Гэмм]

it's not "blanket approval"..it's something many have thought through and agree with..you still didn't answer what's wrong with introducing to kids the idea of American exceptionalism, something a french thinker observed when travelled to the US and wrote a book about, how different this country was back then compared the rest of the World, where many original concepts and values had been created, and how it paved the way for so many opportunities for people regardless of their background..
I think that people who subscribe to liberal views don't truly understand the role of the US in the World's history, the foundations on which it was built and why it has become so successful..that's why they'd support any changes to this country left and right, even if it'd change the very foundation of it...and they don't appreciate the opportunities this country has given them, more fascinated with themselves than with the country..

[Светлана Гэмм]

U.S. free enterprise system, suggesting it thrives best absent excessive government intervention."
and is it this the truth?? :-)

[Kim Lambert]

Hey! We just need free markets. Keep your hands off us, you liberals. Sick of ya already.

[Светлана Гэмм]

Алёна, they are not liberals..they are lefties..liberals are extinct now..there is a big difference..
you know what I noticed?
and, please, correct me if I'm wrong:
Liberals object to something and can't explain why they object, can't keep up with the discussion, are not familiar with the matter..just because they read - conservatives did something, it automatically means it's something they are against..weird..

[Лина]

can't keep up with the discussion, are not familiar with the matter..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
thanx for a good laugh :-D:-D:-D

[Олег Сах]

2. The country that I am describing have proven to be such a success that some people from other countries decided to move here (I'm not kidding you!). So, the conservatives that speak in slogans do have a one-track-mind - "leave this country alone, don't fix what is not broken, do not corrupt human spirit with social nets and welfare system". That's my explanation of the phenomena that you described.

[Олег Сах]

1. Excellent observation, Julia. Here is my take. Democrats (liberals, left, whichever...) are in constant search of a better model, hence uncertainty of their thought. They look abroad for ideas, search different philosophical or religious movements and constantly, constantly debate which way is a better way to a better society. (Redundancy intended)
People that you call "conservatives" are not in search of better society. They already found it and identified it. They are aware that a large country founded on principals of equality and freedom have worked and is working. That model produced the world's largest economy (being 5 times smaller than China in terms of population), the best education, the largest amount of Nobel Prize winners and Olympic champions. Those conservatives realize that people that were left alone to do what they do best - compete to prosper - do not need to look at ancient Greece or Sweden or Utopia for better way of living.

[Олег Сах]

Ira, that's how you make discussions uncomfortable. Why do you bundle things up? What possessed you to think that anyone here is pro-slavery? Similar to your "we, liberals, have more fun in bed" thinking.

[Олег Сах]

Согласен, хотя мне чу-у-у-точку интересно каким образом представители Party of Lincoln автоматически зачисляются в поклонники торговли рабами. Логики мало.

[Олег Сах]

If you are teaching me the correct definition of "uncomfortable", delve a little into your teaching background and try to recall which party did Lincoln belong to? The same Lincoln who was fighting the South over that tiny-itsy-bitsy issue of Slavery.
Also, you calling me "Slavik" and Maria "Sveta", makes me uncomfortable gain, like in the sentence "This guy was just released from the mental institution and being in the same room with him makes me uncomfortable".

[Wagner]

Hmm...just read back through some posts and can't quite understand what's all the arguing about...Oleg stated pretty clearly that the conservatives identified a way of running a country -- free market, letting people live thier lives, etc and want to continue it. This doesn't mean that you freeze anything in place it just means that you move in the chosen direction instead of jumping around on the "grasss is greener"premise

PS. I opened a new topic for the insults, name calling etc

[Натан Мэвэ]

I second that, Renata. I don't think conservatives are calling for "freezing" anything in place. Rather they advocate evolution of the country in accordance with the CONSTITUTION. And that document calls for a LIMITED Federal Government. Certainly not what progressives want - from both parties.

[Олег Сах]

OK, I'll bite. Any time after July 4, 1776. If you are going to bring up slavery, treatment of native Americans or determent of Japanese, I will answer: This country was always great, there were some growing pains. I also used to poop in my diapers when I was a baby. But I grew up. I don't do it anymore, although I am not proud of it.
Foundation of this country was always strong and admirable. Nothing needs to be frozen this country needs to evolve just like it always did, ultra liberals are trying to shake the foundation of this country. Take choices away from people, replace it with the Nanny State. For that reason I stand by Slogan Conservativism.

[Wagner]

I would, but that is exactly the kind of thing i try to remove from, what started out as intellegent, topics :)

[Wagner]

I don't need to support my position, people posting in the "Punching bag" topic and all those here who get offeneded by implications that they would love to own slaves (you don't call that insulting?) are doing it for me

[Натан Мэвэ]

"international and geopolitical conditions change - and you NEED TO TAKE IT ALL IN CONSIDERATION." - Agreed. However, that does not and should not mean that we trounce or violate our Constitution to achieve necessary results.
"That's why the Constitution is amended so many times - IT WAS NOT PERFECT THE FIRST TIME AROUND." - Agreed, but only partially. It is difficult to define "so many times" unless you do so in the context of time and in comparison with other, similar documents. During the same period of time (230+ years) most of the countries not only have amended their constitutions multiple times - they have REWRITTEN them multiple times.
And most of those "editions" were in fact based on the original AMERICAN CONSTITUTION, I might add.
So 27 amendments in total (first 10 a.k.a. The Bill of Rights, which was adopted at the very beginning) can not in all honesty be considered as "amended so many times".

[Лина]

Согласен, хотя мне чу-у-у-точку интересно каким образом представители Party of Lincoln автоматически зачисляются в поклонники торговли рабами. Логики мало.
--------------------------------------------------------------
guess the men in white sheets might have left some with the wrong impression *-)

[Натан Мэвэ]

"guess the men in white sheets might have left some with the wrong impression"
--- Go to your room, stand in the corner and repeat 100 times: "I will not write stupid things on одноклассники.ру" Then you can come back....(md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (md) (dt) (dt)

[Лина]

Men in white sheets belonged to Party of Lincoln now?
------------------------------------------------------------
to the present day "Party of Lincoln"

[Лина]

well, obviously... the mistake that many here seem to share is that they believe that it's still the same party... Lincoln must be spinning in his grave

[Wagner]

Lina, just of curiosity, do you realize how insulting you're being and just don't care or are you being malicious on purpose?

[Лина]

Insulting? I was simply answering Oleg's question: "Согласен, хотя мне чу-у-у-точку интересно каким образом представители Party of Lincoln автоматически зачисляются в поклонники торговли рабами. Логики мало."

[Натан Мэвэ]

No, of course it's notinsulting to accuse ALL Republicans, including those visiting this site,of being racist slave owner wannabes - how can that be insulting???
Or at least that's how Lina's warped mind thinks. (md) (md) (md)

[Wagner]

So if I said that all liberals were fascist Nazisit would not be insulting just a response to an argument?

Perhaps Lina needs to review the definition of the word "insult"

[Лина]

Renata, perhaps you need to reread my one little post and get that stick out of your ass

[Лина]

No, of course it's notinsulting to accuse ALL Republicans
------------------------------------------------------------
where the fuck did I insultALL republicans??? We all know that Natan has a tendency to blow things out of proportion. I read blatant generalizations about liberals here all the time and hardly ever respond. I made a joke, you didn't find it funny? go fuck yourselves. now you canfeel insulted. see the difference?

[Олег Сах]

And this is how intelligent topics get killed
Always happens that way. And when I use my moderator's position to bring peace I get accused of being a dictator.

[Лина]

anyway, here's a little something for your reading pleasure.


********thedemocraticdaily.com/2009/04/01/what-happened-to-the-party-of-lincoln-and-liberty/

[Олег Сах]

Oleg, you really put a "dick" in a dictator
Depending on who I call the dictator:-D :-D :-D :-D

[Wagner]

Ok, enough of this. There is an actual topic to discuss.
***********.youtube.com/watch?v=R7mRSI8yWwg


Harry Reid maintains that paying taxes in America is voluntary because you have a choice of paying taxes or going to jail. Seriously!

Watch the interview for his statements

[Олег Сах]

Wow, that' some interview. I wonder if dying after being shot in the head is voluntary as well.

[Wagner]

The level of disrespect for the American people and their intelligence is staggering. This is the Senate Majority Leader for crying outloud!!!!

[Mike]

shocker.. another dumbass politician..
i don't think anyone with IQ over 60 is even allowed in DC..

[Wagner]

I'd be fine with a pure dumbass-ness, but this is just insulting, very much along the lines of "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining"

[Натан Мэвэ]

Now at least you all know where comrade Lina gets her daily dose of liberal drivel: ********thedemocraticdaily.com/

[Светлана Гэмм]

I just read that article - OMG!! :-O Reagan is a racist because in Mississippi he gave a speech and said he was for state rights!!??!! (hu) - they say it's code word for racism..how narrow-minded..(md)

[Wagner]

However Harry Reid can call Obama a "light-skinned" African American "with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one" and not be considered a racist. Nice double standards

[Лина]

OMG!! :-O Reagan is a racist because in Mississippi he gave a speech and said he was for state rights!!??!! (hu) - they say it's code word for racism..how narrow-minded
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I know I make fun of your reading comprehension skills, but I'm starting to think that it might not be a laughing matter. I don't know if Reagan was a racist or not (I don't think he was, although I believe we all are to varying degrees), but is that really what you got out of reading the article?
"Reagan told an all-white crowd he was for “state’s rights” – the old Southern code word for slavery and Jim Crow segregation. He denied he was pandering to racial prejudice."
In case you're still not getting it, pandering is not the same as racism. Now some of those who voted for him may very well have been racists, hence, the association between racists and the "Party of Lincoln".

[Лина]

you know what I noticed?
and, please, correct me if I'm wrong:
Liberals object to something and can't explain why they object, can't keep up with the discussion, are not familiar with the matter..
---------------------------------------------------------------------
are you sure you meant liberals?

[Лина]

but since we're making observations, you know what I've noticed: some in this group seem to completely miss (perhaps intentionally) the intended point their opponent is trying to make, and then go off on a tangent -ranting, raving, and blowing the entire thing out of proportion.

[Мария]

Лина, из ротика какой нежной снежинки вылетает трёхэтажная матерщина? Их там несколько в первом ряду...

[Мария]

Теперь понятно, откуда наша дражайшая Лина Детсадовна черпает свои глубочайшие познания. :-|

You know what, if conservatives really think the health-care reform package currently in Congress is sooooo bad, and sooooo unpopular with the American people, they should just shut the fuck up and let it pass so that Democrats suffer at the polls for having passed it. Isn't that what they want?


But you know what, I've had it. Conservatives should just shut the fuck up,period. All they are is a bunch of bullshitting obstructionists who have no interest whatsoever in meaningful reform of any kind.

Man, this is deep |-)

[Алексей Пэтк]

I thought a bit about American Exceptionalism.
First, there is a difference between nationalism -- in a sense of patriotism, being proud for your nation and its accomplishments -- and exceptionalism. Patriotism identifies a person and his/her country -- and thus should be taught, cultivated, and encouraged.
On the other hand, IMHO, exceptionalism implies entitlement. In a sense that someone does not need to follow general rules and principles. If one defines the whole nation that is above the rules of the world one can quickly get to Nazism. This is what happened to Germany (and Italy) in the early 20th century.
Moreover, according to the Declaration of Independence "all men are created equal", which excludes exceptionism as a basis on which this country is built.

[Mike]

that fact that we are all created equal does not mean that we ARE equal..
otherwise why am i not 6'9??

[Светлана Гэмм]

you are not!!?? :-O
anyway, American exceptionalism has nothing to do with American people being equal to other nations or not..maybe people need to read Tocqueville to see what he saw in the 5o year old country based on completely new principles whereas the rest of the World was infected with ideas of socialism to improve people's lives, Ameirca пошла другим путем :-) and very successfully so..
Tocqueville tried to understand why America was so different from Europe in the last throes of aristocracy.America, in contrast to the aristocratic ethic, was a society wherehard work and money-making was the dominant ethic, where the common manenjoyed a level of dignity which was unprecedented, where commonersnever deferred to elites, and where what he described as crassindividualism and market capitalism had taken root to an extraordinary degree.

[Алексей Пэтк]

American exceptionalism has nothing to do with American people being equal to other nations or not
Ok, good! So then we have to come up with a definition of exceptionalism -- and if it not the same as entitlement why this particular word was chosen.
Now, you define it as a way of individualism and money-making as a cornerstone to build a country (to oversimplify the picture). How is that exceptional compared to other routs to build a country? Say, Australia (same route), Canada (ok, somewhat different), New Zealand or Singapore???

[Светлана Гэмм]

exceptional - different....
Americans are different in terms of being motivated, having little limits, pursuing American dream..
anyway, you can think about it away you want, but the idea that people are born to be free, have God-given rights, government should be for the people, by the people, etc. are unique for America..

[Khramaya]

I would only agree with "exceptionalism" in school curriculums is they will say is an equivalent of working your butt off exceptionally hard:-) . Otherwise all it is is pseudo-patriotic propaganda. Almost like "velikij i moguchij". Baloney. Kids should be taught to be proud of their country's history, but right now, please increase our math and science standards - it's a lot more important.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I also like this observation and comparison to Europeans and explanation of differences..
This rapidly democratizing society, as Tocqueville understood it, had apopulation devoted to "middling" values which wanted to amass, throughhard work, vast fortunes. In Tocqueville's mind, this explained whyAmerica was so different from Europe. In Europe, he claimed, nobodycared about making money. The lower classes had no hope of gaining morethan minimal wealth, while the upper classes found it crass, vulgar,and unbecoming of their sort to care about something as unseemly asmoney; many were virtually guaranteed wealth and took it for granted.At the same time in America workers would see people fashioned inexquisite attire and merely proclaim that through hard work they toowould soon possess the fortune necessary to enjoy such luxuries.

[Лина]

Americans are different in terms of being motivated, having little limits, pursuing American dream..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Americans or immigrants?

[Wagner]

Americans or immigrants? In my view
Americans = immigrants, which ix exactly what makes this country exceptional

[Лина]

you really don't see a difference between recent immigrants and americans whose families have lived here for several generations?

[Алексей Пэт]

I would only agree with "exceptionalism" in school curriculums is they will say is an equivalent of working your butt off exceptionally hard
Hmm... as far as I know, Japanese think that Americans are lazy... :-)

[Mike]

if Japanese people think something it HAS to be true.. otherwise Godzilla will show up and punish everyone :)

[Светлана Гэмм]

I agree -we do have lazy Americans, the ones who expect healthcare, social services and other goodies from the government..unless they are disabled, they must be lazy if they can't get their necessities themselves through hard work..

[Алексей Пэтк]

So those are exceptions from the exceptional nation? :-)
Mike, I like you Godzilla argument. :-)

[Олег Сах]

The reason I don't feel that American Exceptionalism should be flaunted around, is because it reminds me of parents telling everyone that their child is great, or, rather, children telling everyone that their parents are the best. Which may be true, but should not be paraded.
I agree with Alexey, if taught in schools, it could create sense of entitlement. As valid as it is, it should be limited to studying on scholastic level (in a true meaning of the word "scholastic").
As per Frenchman's observations of 200 years ago, it reminded me of the document that someone dug up in the Historical Archive of Kiev when I worked there 22 years ago. Another Frenchman visited Ukraine 250 years ago and described traditions, culture and even climate in completely sensationalistic, untruthful way. You can't take every Frenchman's impressions at token value.

[Лина]

"There is indeed a third-generation decline in educational attainment. The third-generation decline phenomenon among Asian students and adults is in part associated with what I call blind-assimiliation into the prevailing norm and value of educational achievement in America. That is, third- or higher-generation Asians often accept the American norm that as long as they try, it will be acceptable even if they do not reach a higher level of education, whereas many Asians who grow up in an immigrant family believe that if they try harder, they can do better."

********books.google.com/books?id=5PSYZMs8TzEC&pg=PA298&lpg=PA298&dq=%22third+generation+decline%22&source=bl&ots=IZGyUTmNtg&sig=jeDBkZ0bCB-ieBmkZCQUP2MAf3U&hl=en&ei=s1OiS6zGH4X7lwfd_cyGCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22third%20generation%20decline%22&f=true

[Светлана Гэмм]

hmm..pardon my ignorance but I missed the whole point on feeling entitled...entitled to what??
and the comparison to a child doesn't fly - than it's rather to a great grandpa...so now we are supposed to keep it a secret from a grandson that his ancestor was a hero and a pioneer because his friends' grandparents were not?? kinda like no one loses..(ch)
dunno who came to Ukraine and why, but to me that observation sounds about right..even explains the differences in mentalities among nations even today..so it's very education from my perspective..

[Khramaya]

"is because it reminds me of parents telling everyone that their childis great, or, rather, children telling everyone that their parents arethe best"
- or,in other words, like in Lake Wobegon - "where all women are strong, all men are good looking,and all children are above average" ( thank you, Garrison Keillor for enriching the American culture with this concept of illusory superiority!)

[Мария]

This is an excerpt from Richard Lowry and Ramesh Ponnuru's piece "An exceptional Debate"
What do we, as American conservatives, want to conserve? Theanswer is simple: the pillars of American exceptionalism. Our countryhas always been exceptional. It is freer, more individualistic, moredemocratic, and more open and dynamic than any other nation on earth.These qualities are the bequest of our Founding and of our culturalheritage. They have always marked America as special, with a uniquerole and mission in the world: as a model of ordered liberty andself-government and as an exemplar of freedom and a vindicator of it,through persuasion when possible and force of arms when absolutelynecessary.

[Мария]

Liberty is the most important element of the creed. To secure it, the Founders set about strictly limiting government within carefully specified bounds.Im*mediately upon the collapse of British government in America, thestates drew up written constitutions and neutered their executives.They went as far as they could possibly go to tame the government —indeed, they went farther, and had to start over to get a functioningstate. But even this second try produced a Constitution thatconcentrated as much on what government could not do as on what itcould.
The Founders knew what men were capable of, in the positive senseif their creative energies were unleashed and in the negative sense ifthey were given untrammeled power over others.

[Светлана Гэмм]

I guess that's why I strongly support our kids being educated in different districts..I want my kids to understand the unique and exceptional place America holds in the World, understand what exactly makes it unique, treasure it and try to conserve the foundations of freedom..
btw, another educational article..
********newledger.com/2009/05/american-exceptionalism-and-its-enemies/

[Мария]

“It may be a reflection on human nature,” Madison wrote in a famous passage in FederalistNo. 51 describing the checks in the Constitution, “that such devicesshould be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what isgovernment itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were togovern men, neither external nor internal controls on government wouldbe necessary.”
The Constitution’s negative character reflected its basic goal: toprotect people in their liberty. In starkcontrast, Europeanconstitutions, even prior to World War II, established positive rightsto government benefits. As Mary Ann Glendon notes, these differences“are legal manifestations of divergent, and deeply rooted, culturalattitudes toward the state and its functions.”
This framework of freedom made possible the flourishing of the greatest commercial republic in history.

[Мария]

In a telling coincidence, the publication of Adam Smith’s world-changing free-market classic, The Wealth of Nations,coincided with the Declaration of Independence in 1776. Many of theFounders read the book. Without the medieval encumbrances and thepowerful, entrenched special interests that plagued other countries,the United States could make Smith’s ideas the basis of its economicdispensation. Gordon writes, “The United States has consistently comecloser to the Smithian ideal over a longer period of time than anyother major nation.”
In the latitude provided by this relatively light-handedgov*ernment, a commerce-loving, striving, and endlessly inventivepeople hustled its way to become the greatest economic power the worldhas ever known.
In America, there really hasn’t been a disaffected proletariat — because the proletariat has gotten rich.

[Мария]

These are just a few paragraphs from this wonderful article on American Exceptionalism.
Here is the rest
********tinyurl.com/ybpzkhp
(warning: for intelligent users only).

[Светлана Гэмм]

Маша, сорри - я влезла..we posted at the same time..:-D (v)
great article (Y) too bad people can't get it..*-)

[Мария]

They all can get it physically by opening the URL.
But not all of them can get it :-| (H)

[Khramaya]

"But not all of them can get it"
- it would be at least polite not to consider people who differ in opinions and platforms as total idiots.

[Гера Така]

People who differ in opinions and platforms


You mean people who want change this country?

They are may not be idiots. Just stupid.
But those who act on it - are pure evil enemies and should be ostracized.

[Khramaya]

"They are may not be idiots. Just stupid."
------
- I hope moderators will respond to this appropriately.

[Гера Така]

Они будут строить в моей стране коммунизм , а я буду посыпать голову пеплом из-за политкорректности!
Where is John Gault!
Yeah! I am reading Atlas Shrugged and living it...

[Светлана Гэмм]

Julia, I think you better take a closer look in a group where you are a moderator :-) ..does this sound familiar огромное количество самовлюблённых идиотов?? when speaking about the people living in TX who changed the school curriculum ... and you laughed to it..
there is also tons of other insults of those you don't agree with..how is this for a topic - For the love of Glenn Beck and other right-wing nuts?? ;-)

[Гера Така]

... and Glenn Beck is not a right wing... he is pushing against republicans quite hard.
The only people who never watched him - can call him "right wing".

[Олег Сах]

OK, when this group started to finally look like the place where people of different persuasions can have a normal discussion, the fight is brewing again. Julia, I don't think Maria was wrong to observe that some people might not get an article she liked. Gera, please, when using words like "stupid" & "idiot", please clarify the addressee.

[Khramaya]

why do we need to discuss persona's of those who discuss at all?
we need to discuss the issue, that''s it.
But Glen Beck we can call whatever we want.
And "the other side" can call Keith Olbermann names, too.
:-) :-) :-)

[Лина]

They are may not be idiots. Just stupid.

-------------------------------------------------------------
I bow before your obviously superior intellect

[Лина]

... and Glenn Beck is not a right wing... he is pushing against republicans quite hard.
The only people who never watched him - can call him "right wing".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like labels, I just think he's off his rocker

[Светлана Гэмм]

Julia, please..I know you are a dem, but enough with the double standardс! ... weren't you the one who told me to stop criticizing Obama Fox News style in the good ol' group?? (ch) I was not discussing participants, but a politician..
давайте, как взрослые люди, смотреть за собой, а не за другими..будут лучше результаты..

[Khramaya]

Sveta, just for your information, I never belonged to any party.
And frequently voted Republican on the local level. Those are the facts.... feel free to interpret as you wish. As far as Fox news, I am afraid history might show how damaging this style of journalism is to this nation. Really wish I am wrong on this.(S)

[Светлана Гэмм]

btw. Julia! if you want to discuss the issue, why don't you read the article (that has a lot of historical information and facts) and we'll discuss it..because your discussing the issue with statements like - "delusional sense of superiority" - not very productive..

[Лина]

Illusory superiority, not delusional sense of superiority...
"Illusory superiority (also known as Superiority bias) is a cognitive bias in which people overestimate the degree to which they possess desirable qualities, relative to others, or underestimate their negative qualities relative to others. Whereas in optimism bias people overestimate the likelihood of favourable events happening "to" them, in illusory superiority people have inflated views of their own characteristics."
I would say there isn't a country in the world that doesn't consider itself exceptional... I'm certain that none see themselves as justaverage or mediocre...just like every mother considers their child to be the most beautiful, talented, intelligent... we all like to deem ourselves special and unique... if anything, this makes us more like everyone else rather than less.

[Мария]

"But not all of them can get it"
- it would be at least polite not to consider people who differ in opinions and platforms as total idiots.
Julia, you are the last person I had in mind when I was typing this(ch) . But there are a lot of very narrow minded people who refuse to get it. They would rather go to hateful radical leftist blogs, where idiot-bloggers argue like "Why don't f*cking republican just shut the f*ck up?" Come on, you can't consider these sort of trash as a worthy political opponent to intelligent and highly educated conservatives like Ramesh' Ponnuru, Richard Lowry, Jonah Gold, Mark Stein, Mark Levin ect.
And Keith Olberman is not a journalist'. He is so full of paritsan hate that he is going to eat himself one day.
(pl)

[Алексей Пэтк]

But there are a lot of very narrow minded people who refuse to get it. They would rather go to hateful radical leftist blogs, where idiot-bloggers argue like "Why don't f*cking republican just shut the f*ck up?"
I'm just curious -- how many of those belong to this group and participate in this particular conversation?
Also, again, regardless of this particular discussion: people who get it, but do not agree with it -- are they idiots/narrow minded too?

[Khramaya]

OK, read the article... brings some interesting points. But the overall tone is so inflammatory....why does it have to be? Wouldn't we get it if just those points being stated? I don't mean "get" as "agree", simply as "understand".
well, if this is the case,
let me post another article then, with semi-inflammatory tone, but also brings good points:
***********.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinion/19jacoby.html?pagewanted=1&th&emc=th

[Светлана Гэмм]

this is what I don't understand - first, those two articles are on two completely different subjects. Then, do you think parents in TX don't want their kids to get a good education and only people in NY do?? All those changes have nothing to do with math and science, it was social studies...all those changes have been debated for years, still not implemented waiting for public input, if we disagree how we see American form of government, role of the US, isn't it the beauty of our democratic system that we all get to choose where we live and vote for our own board?? I want you to educate your kids the way you feel is right, why can't people on the left afford me the same??

[Алексей Пэтк]

Interesting paper in the National Review.
So, we are exceptional because we are driven by greed? :-) Sounds true if you consider that all engineering progress came from human laziness :-) (it's a semi-joke).
On a more serious note, they compare US to European countries, but do not really mention Australia, New Zealand, etc. that were built on similar principles...

[Алексей Пэт]

Actually, I think that section IV has nothing to do with the rest of the article. And I believe that in many instances the authors mix up the notions of exceptionalism and patriotism. Maybe intentionally.

[Светлана Гэмм]

wasn't your and others' argument that we we teach the kids about exceptionalism is like instilling into them pseudo-patriotism?? like if we tell the kids that our country has a unique origin, history, background, we are encouraging them to be proud of their country...?? (ch)
Australia does have lots of similarities with the US, only over 100 yrs latter...(ch)

[Khramaya]

"I want you to educate your kids the way you feel is right, why can't people on the left afford me the same??"
- completely different prospective:
I want ALL kids, mine, yours, and next door Joe's educated according to the best available WORLD standards. I want ALL kids to have access and opportunity to learn math, sciences, literature to an extent theat will make them competent and cometitive in the WORLD. That is why educational standards should not be set by local boards that might have people on them with absolutely no pedagogical or science background and who might be driven by their own ideological agendas ,but by professional educators and scientists. I think Galina resonated the same a few days back...

[Алексей Пэт]

I was arguing that we should teach our kinds patriotism, not pseudo-patriotism. Why do you say that?

[Светлана Гэмм]

if we are not happy with the local boards and dept.s of education, why we assume people in the federal government would do a better job and won't be ideological, etc.?? and I am not even talking about the constitutionality of it..

[Светлана Гэмм]

I was arguing that we should teach our kinds patriotism, not pseudo-patriotism. Why do you say that?
because you said the author was mixing up exceptionalism and patriotism, but I think the author was poiting out that those who don't believe in American exceptionalism don't like patriotism as well...
and what's "our kinds of patriotism"??